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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:13 pm
by Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
And because the unconventional warfare units would have to blend in with civilians, the game would also have to deal with the moral grey-area of killing non-combatants in the face on unconventional warfare...

Well newsflash: this is what modern warfare in Middle East is ALL ABOUT. It's all about getting bogged down in moral grey area land for many months trying to figure out whether the neighborhood granny is actually a suicide bomber or who of the locals with the smiling faces will plant the roadside IED.

It's not really about glorious desert blitzkriegs and such. And yes, it's not just bad taste, but also completely unhistoric to try to represent the modern Middle East campaign as civilian-less desert blitzkrieg. It just does not work that way. It's not about T-55 vs M1A1 - and even if it would be what's the point of playing something so one sided?

If you don't trust Americans ask Israelis about their experiences.

So yeah, I am with the "bad taste/stupid scenario" club here... If they really wanted to make realistic Middle East game, it would have to be ugly dirty thing. I might want to try it for sheer curiosity, but CM:SF as designed - meh who cares.

However, I don't doubt the fanbois will hype this to heaven and back.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:25 pm
by Plodder
Civilians are in the game but heavily abstracted.The density of civilians is taken into account for spotting unconventional troops and IEDs.If a civilian vehicle suddenly pops up into view in the game it means it's doing something that's raised troops suspicions.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:32 pm
by Plodder
From their blog:

One of the strengths of unconventional fighters (Uncon for short) is that they blend with the noncombatants and choose where and when to fight deliberately. This creates a problem for us, as designers, since a direct simulation would require us simulating such things as cultural habits, economic activity, traffic, daily civilian activities, thousands of autonomous “entities” (i.e. people), etc. You don’t have to be a game designer to see that this is actually more work than the military side of the simulation! Even then - due to the vary nature of playing a wargame scenario players will tend to be much more suspicious than in real life, making it unrealistically difficult for Uncons to blend with the crowd; while at the same time the repercussions for unrealistic actions (such as shooting civilians on mere suspicion) cannot be enforced in a realistic way in a game.

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The solution we came up with simulates unconventional warfare in a highly abstracted way. Civilians are not represented at all in any direct sense, removing all the years of work it would take to simulate them. Instead, unconventional units are simply hidden from the US player until his units have reason to “suspect” there is a hostile unit, at which point it is spotted and targetable. In game terms, some units have a “stealth rating” that other units lack.

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There are five basic types of Uncons in the game: transports (civilian vehicles used as transport), Technicals (civilian vehicles with mounted heavy weapons), Fighters (mercenaries and guerrilla soldiers), Combatants (ad hoc civilians picking up a weapon) and Specialists. Out of those, only Specialists (Spies, IEDs, and VIEDs) are “stealthy”. All of the others are not attempting to remain hidden, since they carry visible weapons and/or unitforms or special clothing, and for them the normal spotting rules apply.

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Spies are unarmed informants. They have no weapons and their sole purpose is to be the “eyes and ears” for the Syrian player. IEDs are stationary roadside bombs, varying in both size and type (wire, radio, cell phone), which are detonated by an armed Uncon triggerman. VIEDs are cars packed with explosives, driven by a suicide bomber and usually accompanied by a spy directing the driver and designating targets.

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The “stealth” rules apply to all Specialists except for the triggermen, who are armed. By default, Specialists are invisible to the US side at the beginning of a mission. This has nothing to do with line of sight calculations. The Specialist unit could be in plain view of US forces, and would still be invisible to the US player. For them to get spotted a Specialist must do something “suspicious”.

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The Syrian player is able to move Specialists as he would any other units, though what is done, how, and where has a direct impact on the “stealth” of the Uncon unit. Think of it this way… as a soldier, would you be suspicious of a civilian crawling behind a wall? How about a taxi driving through the open desert towards your positions? Units engaging in questionable behaviour like this are more likely to be spotted than if they were doing something less suspicious. For example, walking down a road in plain sight would be the most normal thing in the world, and would therefore not lead to a stealth reduction. A car driving along a road at a normal speed would not generally be seen as a threat. However, the closer the Specialists get to US forces, the less likely they will remain hidden. This is a conventional war setting, so any civilians approaching military units would be viewed with heightened suspicion.

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After an Uncon surpasses a stealth threshold he becomes identified as a combatant, and therefore immediately visible to the US player as a hostile target for the remainder of the game.

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This simple system eliminates all sorts of possible pitfalls and problems in a very elegant way. Players don’t have to cope with decoys, civilian traffic, or noncombatants, which would lead to a lot of micromanagement and distraction for what is effectively a minor side aspect of the game. We don’t have to worry about simulating the ramifications of killing innocent civilians, or programming all sorts of AI behaviour which would have no meaningful impact on the combat side of game. And yet, despite the various abstractions, the Syrian player has direct control of his Uncon forces.

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Best of all, the end result is pretty realistic. If all goes well (from the Syrian perspective), the US player will only realize where an IED is when it detonates. On the flip side, blatant unrealistic use of Uncon Specialists will likely result in them getting spotted, and mowed down, before they are able to do anything useful. Due to the abstractions in the system, additional aspects such as civilian population density can be integrated seamlessly and without binding excessive resources during development or during gameplay. This leaves our development resources focused on the main aspect of the game, conventional warfare, while at the same time sufficiently simulating a full spectrum asymmetric warfare environment. Something that no other commercial wargame has done before.

okay, that last bit may sound a bit propagandarish(is that a word? :D) but it seems like a good compromise to me.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:51 pm
by Ron
Whoa Plodder, no need to bring forth facts and design rationale to this thread!

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:54 pm
by Plodder
LOL, my bad [:D]

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:18 pm
by Mobius
While there is logic behind not showing civilians in running a smoother game.  Just abstracting the infiltrators is a deficit on the immersion factor.  And isn't that the reason for the super detail?  Otherwise it would be as realistic as a firing range with popup silhouette targets.[/align]

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:18 am
by WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well newsflash: this is what modern warfare in Middle East is ALL ABOUT. It's all about getting bogged down in moral grey area land for many months trying to figure out whether the neighborhood granny is actually a suicide bomber or who of the locals with the smiling faces will plant the roadside IED.

Well that demonstrates a very ignorant understanding of a very complex situation, well done. [8|]

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:02 am
by Neilster
ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well newsflash: this is what modern warfare in Middle East is ALL ABOUT. It's all about getting bogged down in moral grey area land for many months trying to figure out whether the neighborhood granny is actually a suicide bomber or who of the locals with the smiling faces will plant the roadside IED.

Well that demonstrates a very ignorant understanding of a very complex situation, well done. [8|]

That quote is from Oleg's broader point that dealing with the grey-area of civilians who may be fighters is part of modern, Middle-Eastern war. Can you point out exactly why this is "a very ignorant understanding of a very complex situation"? It seems pretty reasonable to me.

Cheers, Neilster


RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:02 am
by WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: Neilster
That quote is from Oleg's broader point that dealing with the grey-area of civilians who may be fighters is part of modern, Middle-Eastern war. Can you point out exactly why this is "a very ignorant understanding of a very complex situation"? It seems pretty reasonable to me.


Well for a start during actual combat operations civilian deaths aren’t a foremost concern to military commanders, thus rendering this whole point invalid.

In a military operation commanders will take whatever actions necessary in order to complete their objectives whilst protecting the lives of their troops, with civilian deaths being a considerably lower priority. Most civilians are also smart enough to remove themselves from combat environments, thus reducing this concern further. Do some reading on the initial invasion of Iraq if you wish to see this, or even review the Israeli conflict in Lebanon last year where the Israelis had far more trouble with AT missiles and SAMs than they did grannys, hence the fact that entire city blocks were leveled in the process.

What is being described above are the security issues that arise after a military operation has been successfully completed, which is a totally different issue to 'modern warfare'. Either way, this whole 'bad taste' argument is rather pathetic considering we all happily sit around playing wargames based on a conflict that killed 22 million civilians alone.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:27 am
by cdbeck
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
It's not really about glorious desert blitzkriegs and such. And yes, it's not just bad taste, but also completely unhistoric to try to represent the modern Middle East campaign as civilian-less desert blitzkrieg.

It is ahistorical to assume that any Blitzkriegs were "civilian-less." While the WWII desert blitzs (if you could call them that) had fewer civilians, the European blitzes resulted in numerous civilian deaths. The German blitz of Poland resulted in around 150,000 civilians missing, wounded, or incarcerated and executed later. In fact, the Nazis had special units that they sent after the initial invasion to "clean up" undesirable civilians, resulting in thousands of executions.

Now my question still remains, why can we have a game like CM: Barbarossa to Berlin and call it a wargame in good taste and then label CM:SF poor taste because it is more current. War is war, and civilians die, along with enlisted men/women. Either you understand that and play the game anyway, or you don't play wargames. As far as poor taste goes, allowing anyone to play the Nazi war-machine is about as "bad taste" as it gets.

So Oleg, your point oversimplifies the situation. My point was that the developers abstracted civilians for ease and to be more "sensitive" (a.k.a. a player cannot simply target civilians just for "fun" to see non-combatants die). They did the same thing with the earlier CM games.

SoM

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:09 am
by GreyFox
Well for a start during actual combat operations civilian deaths aren’t a foremost concern to military commanders, thus rendering this whole point invalid.

In a military operation commanders will take whatever actions necessary in order to complete their objectives whilst protecting the lives of their troops, with civilian deaths being a considerably lower priority. Most civilians are also smart enough to remove themselves from combat environments, thus reducing this concern further. Do some reading on the initial invasion of Iraq if you wish to see this, or even review the Israeli conflict in Lebanon last year where the Israelis had far more trouble with AT missiles and SAMs than they did grannys, hence the fact that entire city blocks were leveled in the process.

What is being described above are the security issues that arise after a military operation has been successfully completed, which is a totally different issue to 'modern warfare'. Either way, this whole 'bad taste' argument is rather pathetic considering we all happily sit around playing wargames based on a conflict that killed 22 million civilians alone.

In the First Gulf War General Powell, the then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called a halt on all bombing of Baghdad without his express permission due to the deaths of a couple of hundred Iraqi civilians who were sheltered inside a military command centre. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Modern democracies will tend to get faint of heart when civilians are getting killed in a warzone. Yes I know it's inevitable but some - well I won't call them fools, perhaps idealists woul'd be a better word? - seem to think that it shouldn't happen and is morally repugnant, nay, evil. Whether you like it or not public opinion on the killing of civilians can lose the military the support of their own population whilst providing the enemy a propaganda coup: "look at these monsters killing and raping our children! They are evil!just don't ask about teh weapons stores under their apartment blocks...."

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:18 am
by Neilster
ORIGINAL: WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: Neilster
That quote is from Oleg's broader point that dealing with the grey-area of civilians who may be fighters is part of modern, Middle-Eastern war. Can you point out exactly why this is "a very ignorant understanding of a very complex situation"? It seems pretty reasonable to me.


Well for a start during actual combat operations civilian deaths aren’t a foremost concern to military commanders, thus rendering this whole point invalid.

You can't have "a foremost concern", only "the foremost concern" but no-one was arguing that civilian deaths are the commander's foremost concern. They are, however, a significant concern during combat operations, which is exactly what Oleg was on about.

He's not ignorant of modern military affairs. You just disagree with him.

Cheers, Neilster


RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:49 am
by Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
It is ahistorical to assume that any Blitzkriegs were "civilian-less." While the WWII desert blitzs (if you could call them that) had fewer civilians, the European blitzes resulted in numerous civilian deaths.

This is my reply to both you and WITP gamer (that guy seems to be seriously pissed off if anyone dares touch "his" beloved CMSF [:D])

Civilian deaths are VERY important concern for every western force operating in ME (Middle East) or really anywhere. Now we can argue whether that concern is purely political, or military, or somewhere in between but the concern is definitely there. Remember, you're there to bring them democracy and whatnot and not to mass slaughter them. (If you want just mass slaughter that can be done easily without troops on the ground - in that case count on every survivor joining the local Al Qaida recruiting station, if that's your goal it can easily be done using airforce and Navy launched Tomahawks.)

But that't not really my main point. My main point is that devs kinda decided to "cheat", ie to model the "glorious part" of the war, while ignoring the ugly, civilian/terrorist/IED/occupational duty part of the war. This is not only morally questionable, but for ME warfare also very unrealistic. Unlike other wars modern ME wars have VERY short and one sided "glorious part", and usually looongggg and very ugly "ugly part".

You say, everyone else did that too, quoting examples of numerous East front games....

But on East Front civilian killing incidents were usually isolated from the actual fighting. Nazis rounded up people and gassed them od shot them or shipped them to forced labor camps but that was in every sense separate from the actual fighting. And they didn't give a sh1t what would "world opinion" think of them (Soviets didn't care as well). That's in no way comparable to ME.

EF gave us bazillions of (relatively) good clean military fights without a civilian to be seen anywhere near the combat.

Modern (post Iraq-Iran war) Middle East wars gave us grand total of ZERO (0) good clean military fights to model. US Armored Division vs Arab-manned T-55s? Well who cares. That's not what ME wars are about.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:54 am
by WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: Neilster



You can't have "a foremost concern", only "the foremost concern" but no-one was arguing that civilian deaths are the commander's foremost concern. They are, however, a significant concern during combat operations, which is exactly what Oleg was on about.


Oh please, lets not degenerate into scanning each others posts for misplaced words, I have better things to do and besides, your incorrect. [:'(]

I can only take his words at face value as unfortautnely you were not at hand to explain them for him. In his words 'moden warfare' in the middle east is 'ALL ABOUT' getting ' bogged down in moral grey area land for many months trying to figure out whether the neighborhood granny is actually a suicide bomber or who of the locals with the smiling faces will plant the roadside IED'. That is a rediculas statement to make as that describes the security issues after the conflict is over, not the combat operations themsevles. They are two totally seperate issues

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:08 am
by JudgeDredd
If I could jump in and ask, then WITPGamer...

Are you saying then that in the ME (currently Iraq) that once the conventional war was over, the war stopped and they then faced security threats?

If that's the case, then I can't agree with you. I would suggest that the civilian population were taking up arms be they AK47s or RPGs and interdicting the coalition along with the conventional war...and they were not dressed in army uniforms...and I think that's the point...that games do not embrace this "modern" warfare.

Whether they could include this kind of new warfare in games and whether they should is debateable.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:10 am
by WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

This is my reply to both you and WITP gamer (that guy seems to be seriously pissed off if anyone dares touch "his" beloved CMSF [:D])

Actually I have no real concen about your feelings on the game itself, you are opened to any opinion you wish. I was commenting on your statements that you used to back it up.

But on East Front civilian killing incidents were usually isolated from the actual fighting.

I see. Well that belief does go a long way to explaining your previous comments.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:18 am
by WITPgamer
ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Are you saying then that in the ME (currently Iraq) that once the conventional war was over, the war stopped and they then faced security threats?

One major combat operations ended in Iraq yes, the occupational phase begun, which went no were near according to plan of course.
If that's the case, then I can't agree with you. I would suggest that the civilian population were taking up arms be they AK47s or RPGs and interdicting the coalition along with the conventional war...and they were not dressed in army uniforms...and I think that's the point...that games do not embrace this "modern" warfare.

With regards to civilians taking up arms during the conflict no doubt they did but at that point they become combatants, not civilians, and it appears that the game is actually taking this into account to a point. For the most part though I havnt really been discussing this thread with regards to the game, more so about the nature of conflict in the ME in general, which I guess reults with this thread being way off topic at this point [:D].

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:43 am
by GreyFox
EF gave us bazillions of (relatively) good clean military fights without a civilian to be seen anywhere near the combat.
 
I can't agree with that. Many thousands of Afghani's have been killed by American and NATO forces there. A few weddings were bombed since the Afghani's tend to shot guns in the air in celebration.

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:47 am
by Neilster
ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

ORIGINAL: Neilster



You can't have "a foremost concern", only "the foremost concern" but no-one was arguing that civilian deaths are the commander's foremost concern. They are, however, a significant concern during combat operations, which is exactly what Oleg was on about.


Oh please, lets not degenerate into scanning each others posts for misplaced words, I have better things to do and basides, your wrong.

I can only take his words at face value as unfortautnely you were not at hand to explain them for him. In his words 'moden warfare' in the middle east is 'ALL ABOUT' getting ' bogged down in moral grey area land for many months trying to figure out whether the neighborhood granny is actually a suicide bomber or who of the locals with the smiling faces will plant the roadside IED'. That is a rediculas statement to make as that describes the security issues after the conflict is over, not the combat operations themsevles. They are two totally seperate issues

There are so many spelling, grammar and punctuation mistakes in your post it's hard to work out exactly what you're saying but I assume you mean "...besides, you're wrong." when you wrote "...basides, your wrong." But how???!!! You aren't going to get away with that, mate. I know that minimizing civilian causalities is a significant concern in both combat and security operations because I've actually been trained by the military for these missions. They are not "totally seperate (sic) issues". You replied (badly) by merely saying I'm wrong. That's pathetic. If I'm wrong on this specific point, explain exactly how. In doing so, please don't bang on about something Oleg said, or some issue unrelated to the specific question I asked you, which appears to be your standard style.

I assume English isn't your first language but even so, if you use it as badly as you do, you're on thin ice calling someone else ignorant. I don't even agree with Oleg, but I know he's not ignorant of modern military matters.

Cheers, Neilster

RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:03 pm
by Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: GreyFox
EF gave us bazillions of (relatively) good clean military fights without a civilian to be seen anywhere near the combat.

I can't agree with that. Many thousands of Afghani's have been killed by American and NATO forces there. A few weddings were bombed since the Afghani's tend to shot guns in the air in celebration.

[&:]

EF = East Front (in WW2)