Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Hertston

It's hard to disagree with SL/ASL (or indeed chess!)... but I actually played an awful lot more Starfleet Battles.

I LOVED Starfleet battles. I always played the Klingons, absolutely sucked at it, but damn was I Brave. For those not in the know in that game the majority of the Klingon weapons are inferior to Starfleet weapons, your usual enemy. And your shields are not up to par for the required charge you have to make to bring your phaser 2's into killing range.

I still have around 100 board games rotting in my garage. I love war games.

Another game I have that I liked was the tactical donut at Alesia.

The Romans have Vercentrix (ok I have no idea how to spell his name) trapped in the town of Alesia. A releaving army is coming to break the siege. The Romans have not enough men to cover the entire circle inside and out. They have 23 forts though that have a huge Area of range. And they have interior lines compared to the relief force.

It is a 2 day battle. To win the Barbarians have to get Vercentrix out and he can not ever get in range of a fort or archery unit. The outside army has hidden movement into zones. All the romans know is when a zone has something in it.

One major ploy is for the barbarians to work on making a hole or two in the fort coverage on the first day and then working to clear a path on the second day.

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Another game I have that I liked was the tactical donut at Alesia.

The Romans have Vercentrix (ok I have no idea how to spell his name) trapped in the town of Alesia. A releaving army is coming to break the siege. The Romans have not enough men to cover the entire circle inside and out. They have 23 forts though that have a huge Area of range. And they have interior lines compared to the relief force.

It is a 2 day battle. To win the Barbarians have to get Vercentrix out and he can not ever get in range of a fort or archery unit. The outside army has hidden movement into zones. All the romans know is when a zone has something in it.

One major ploy is for the barbarians to work on making a hole or two in the fort coverage on the first day and then working to clear a path on the second day.

That was a great game. Very challenging for both sides.

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

Not trying to be nasty, just trying to stimulate something more interesting than a list of people talking past each other. We've already seen chess, card games and monopoly listed among wargames - and the assertion that the ASL Monolith trumps them all. I'd be far more interested in knowing why people feel these games are "the best" or for that matter what they feel "best" means. Otherwise, it's just empty calories *burp*

Is a explanation of the reasons one would choose “Chess” as holding a top slot in the all time list real needed ?

If so ,
Point out the titles mentioned in this thread not a distant relative of “Chess”

Now THAT is a fascinating question in itself. I'd say none of the titles so far are distant relatives of Chess. I'll postulate that Tactics was a completely new breed of game and all it has in common with Chess is the fact that the game board is divided into squares. All other commercial board wargames descend from Tactics and Tactics II.

I'll postulate further that the most innovative wargames have the most inaccurate titles. Tactics was actually a game about operations, and Squad Leader (which was the first squad level game to do away with an odds-based CRT) is a game in which the player never, ever gets to lead a squad.

"Now THAT is a fascinating question in itself. I'd say none of the titles so far are distant relatives of Chess. I'll postulate that Tactics was a completely new breed of game and all it has in common with Chess is the fact that the game board is divided into squares. All other commercial board wargames descend from Tactics and Tactics II."

I would disagree with that. The old Milton Bradley game Civil War was the first 'area' type game that I can remember. Broadsides, Dogfight and Hit the Beach all have ideas that were used in other games (cards, hit points etc).

ORIGINAL: James Ward

"Now THAT is a fascinating question in itself. I'd say none of the titles so far are distant relatives of Chess. I'll postulate that Tactics was a completely new breed of game and all it has in common with Chess is the fact that the game board is divided into squares. All other commercial board wargames descend from Tactics and Tactics II."

I would disagree with that. The old Milton Bradley game Civil War was the first 'area' type game that I can remember. Broadsides, Dogfight and Hit the Beach all have ideas that were used in other games (cards, hit points etc).

You mean this one - ? http://boardgamegeek.com/game/2428 It came out after Tactics.

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: James Ward

"Now THAT is a fascinating question in itself. I'd say none of the titles so far are distant relatives of Chess. I'll postulate that Tactics was a completely new breed of game and all it has in common with Chess is the fact that the game board is divided into squares. All other commercial board wargames descend from Tactics and Tactics II."

I would disagree with that. The old Milton Bradley game Civil War was the first 'area' type game that I can remember. Broadsides, Dogfight and Hit the Beach all have ideas that were used in other games (cards, hit points etc).

You mean this one - ? http://boardgamegeek.com/game/2428 It came out after Tactics.

Yes. Those games added innovations that Tactics didn't.

I was lucky enough to have 3 older brothers during the heyday of boardgames. The satisfaction from that fraternal interaction was grand, and provides the best gaming experiences of my life.
 
So the not-too-difficult multiplayer ones stand out as the 'best' for me - Diplomacy, Kingmaker, Origins of WW2, Conquistador.
 
Diplomacy is a classic - genious design and simple mechanics. And no random number generator...

ORIGINAL: simovitch

I was lucky enough to have 3 older brothers during the heyday of boardgames. The satisfaction from that fraternal interaction was grand, and provides the best gaming experiences of my life.

So the not-too-difficult multiplayer ones stand out as the 'best' for me - Diplomacy, Kingmaker, Origins of WW2, Conquistador.

Diplomacy is a classic - genious design and simple mechanics. And no random number generator...

For me, boardgaming was always about relationships. While there were folks who showed up at club meetings that didn't participate, it was always my opponents who I got to know and whose company I most enjoyed. Or was it that we got on well and that drew us into a brawl over Afrika Korps? I can't say for sure, but, to me, games without people are just too austere, too limited in possibility.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: simovitch

I was lucky enough to have 3 older brothers during the heyday of boardgames. The satisfaction from that fraternal interaction was grand, and provides the best gaming experiences of my life.

So the not-too-difficult multiplayer ones stand out as the 'best' for me - Diplomacy, Kingmaker, Origins of WW2, Conquistador.

Diplomacy is a classic - genious design and simple mechanics. And no random number generator...

Diplomacy was certainly unique in that regards. Axis and Allies - the original - actually had appeals beyond just wargamers; I remember high school friends playing it and introducing it to "non-gamers" who enjoyed it as much as those of us who played Squad Leader. I'd be loathe to call any of them "best" but there is certainly a market for entry-level and mass-appeal wargames. Platoon was another one that was popular with friends in high school though I think I only tried it once with them.

Hee hee... it is amazing that I didn't LOSE friends playing Diplomacy. [:D] Some really nasty things done (which is why we rarely finished a game in nearly 7 hours of play).

My favorite board game is a sci fi game Twilight Imperium. So much fun, but it doesn't appeal to all. I would say the "perfect" board game is Settlers of Catan. Nearly anyone will play it, easy to get into, both cooperative and competitive, and even people way behind in points can win. It isn't a war board game per se, unless you think of it as economic warfare.

I also like History of the World. Much better than Risk, feels like you are playing a history book and points can fluctuate (meaning you don't have that "I'm always losing with no hope" effect).

None of these games is really "hardcore" (well maybe Twilight Imperium due to its unit variety, colonization of planets, and political simulation), but sometimes the best games are casual.

SoM

Hands Down.
Squad Leader / Cross of Iron (AH) Easy to read, fun to play, great to learn.
ASL was overkill....

Flattop (Battleline) (not the AH version) Specific rules regarding each sides capabilities. Japanese torpedos, Luck die rolls, etc. I loved that game.....

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I have to agre with the one who stated that Raid on St. Nazaire was the best sloitaire game ever

Subjective. If you're looking at replayability, I don't see how it could possibly compare to Ambush!, which was open-ended and in the end had 30+ different scenarios (including the three modules) and something like 10 map and half/map combinations. Compared to a single situation and single map. Is there really a comparison?

The programmed AI of Tokyo Express is touted as the "best" ever, even better than the paragraph driven system in Ambush! and seemed almost human in its ability to (seemingly) react to the actual human player's actions. How did Raid on St. Nazaire's AI compare?

So what makes St. Nazaire "best"? I would give it top marks for "biggest and most unwiedly and needlessly expensive mounted mapboard in human history", or perhaps "best magazine game that was actually sold as a bookcase game instead"...

I enjoyed the hell out of Ambush and it's sequals but replayability suffered once you had read the scripted paragraphs for the actions. I Also have the tank version of the series but the name escapes me at the moment. And yes, I can compare them as any game depicting "generic", "made up", fantasy scenarios will always, always take a back seat to a game that depicts a historical battle. Nothing in Ambush ever compared to the nail biting intensity of the attempt to get the flotilla through to the harbor without getting slaughtered in the process.

I'll agree that Tokoyo Express was an awesome game as well....I just rarely list naval games in the same category with land games....no reason....just an idiosyncrosy. Almost impossible to adequately compare the two AIs. At least for me.

As for unweildy, yea there was a run of games in that era by several publishers that used that fold out mounted map configuiration. The great artwork of the map was worth the unfolding effort alone.

Not to forget Crescendo of Doom ( C.O.D.) All three games were also great for solo play.

ORIGINAL: WARHOG

Hands Down.
Squad Leader / Cross of Iron (AH) Easy to read, fun to play, great to learn.
ASL was overkill....

Flattop (Battleline) (not the AH version) Specific rules regarding each sides capabilities. Japanese torpedos, Luck die rolls, etc. I loved that game.....

My favorite was StarFleet Battles. Man, there were some brutal battles in those tournaments...

I haven't seen them mentioned but I loved the AirForce/Dauntless games. Richtofen's War was good as well. As far as best though, I'd have to go with ASL. [;)]

[Deleted by Admins]

If you loved Star Fleet Battles, there's a new streamlined game by the same company, called Federation Commander.  Rules are much shorter, games are much quicker, and it's quite good.

One of our favourite games for a large group is Civilization by AH. Not really a wargame but we played it that way... very cut throat. There's a group in Sweden that have made a fantastic expansion for this game:

http://www.civproject.net/

We even had this new map printed up on a vinyl (beer proof) sheet thats 2.5' x 6'. Hand made new counters and cards.

Great fun.[8D]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


The Romans have Vercentrix (ok I have no idea how to spell his name) trapped

Vercingtorix

It was a very fun game....I have a copy on the shelf.