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You are right, Germany will need AOs, TKs, AKs and APs as well - and they shouldn't be restricted to <100m.
Anyway, Nordseewerke Emden and Meyers Werft shall be used and Neptun might build the Spähkreuzer.

Look what I've found here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deut ... inewerften

But what about the Mackensen class, now? How much can be done for protection with a ship like the Wasp?

What shall be built after 1936?
1. BB vs. Panzerschiffe
Do more Panzerschiffe make sense? They are cheaper than BBs but take even longer to be constructed while they are weaker. Would it be better to construct BCs instead? Or should one rely on Diesel equipped BBs like the H-Klasse? (In fact that seems to be the question of whether some big mighty BBs or more weaker Panzerschiffe)
2. CVs:
Carriers to fight against enemy Carriers or for commerce raiding? Perhaps a mixture, but long range commerce raiding CVs must have (I think) at least 15cm or even 20,3cm guns to protect themself against enemy small ships as they'll do their missions without own DD escort.
3. CV/CA Flightdeckcruisers?
Like they were considered in the plannings of the Z-Plan. Armed with perhaps two 28cm tripple turrets together with a flightdeck for around 20 to 30 planes? Do they make sense? They seem to weak to fight against anything bigger than CLs while they carry to few planes.
4. What???
I had written on page 1:

At the time when the expansion program begins in mid 1936, the German Navy has the following ships:
10 BB including 6 new
4 CV
11 CAs including 5 pocket battleships
18 CL
65 DD
55 SS
TBs have to be counted as DDs, no?

For later rearmement, there are the following hulks/depot ships/training ships:
10 BBs
14 pre-Dread BBs perhaps listed as CAs because of only 4x28cm main armement
Several obsolete Cruisers and TBs

The DDs and TBs will be built on smaller shipyards and as many as possible. I would recommend small CLs or Spähkreuzer as Flotillaleader to keep bigger slipways free for major ships.
When I assume 19 possible slipways and a start in 10/36 while the game starts in 1/41, we have 19(slipways) x 51 (10/36 to 12/40) = 969 month for building big ships! Of course, many of them will not have entered service, yet.
If we calculate with my data:

BB 35-40.000 16 month
BB 45.000+ 20 month
Pocket battleship 18month (the Diesels and the new welding technology takes its time)
CA 10 month
CV 20 month

in Theorie, it would be possible to have build 48,5 H-Klasse BBs until 1/41 [:D] As they need two more years after leaving the slipway/drydock to be completed and to enter service, many of them will not enter service bevore 42 and 43 - but the amount is almoust impressive, no?

But what shall be built between 10/36 and 12/40?

Flight-deck cruisers were a bad idea. In fact, they were a BAD IDEA. Too weakly gunned to be gunships, not enough aircraft to be carriers. Bad idea...

Und ich bitte dich: keine von diesen blöden super-schlachtschiffen. Die Yamato war eine schlechte idee, und die grossen H-schlachtshiffen war eine klassische NS "grösser-ist-besser" phantasie...

what a day and what a thread - I agree several times mit T [:D][:D][:D]
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H class would be a bad idea !!
Bismark and Tirpitz class should stay the biggest German class
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the O class is much more a thing that Historiker is looking for:
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30500 tons
256,5 m
had diesel engines and classical engines ( with diesel a max speed of 27 knots and with the usual engines 33,4knots )
range 14000 Sm at 19knots
6x 38cm
6x 15cm
8x 10,5cm
8x 3,7 cm
20x 2cm
6 x torpedo
&nbsp;
4x A/C

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Und ich bitte dich: keine von diesen blöden super-schlachtschiffen. Die Yamato war eine schlechte idee, und die grossen H-schlachtshiffen war eine klassische NS "grösser-ist-besser" phantasie...

sehr gut! [:D] Deutsch in der Schule gehabt?
Yes, I know. the H-44 are so impressive, that they really "want" to come into the mod - but in HKD there's no hitler with his extreme "the bigger the better" thinking (Just think about the tanks that were planned with 1500 t and several 28cm guns as KwK [:D]
Something like the H-39 is possible and realistic, but no H-44 - even if I like the idea of having BBs with 50,8cm guns and 130.000 t [X(]


@flightdeckcruisers
I think the same. One big disadvantege in witp is, that I can't give a TF a specific tactic like "avoid every surface battle with warships, only attack unguarded merchants" If this were possible, this ships might make some sense but atm they seem to be a faulty design.


What kind of ships would you choose for the expansion between 36 and 40, Terminus?

ORIGINAL: swift

H class would be a bad idea !!
Bismark and Tirpitz class should stay the biggest German class

Why? Slightly bigger than the Iowas, but fitting all demands of the German doctrine. An extreme maximum range of 19.000 nm, a high topspeed of 30kn, a high survivability because of armour and compartements and an armement that can outfight older BBs.
The H-class seems indeed the perfect ship for long range commerce raiding and convoi hunting, no?

16kts cruise
pure diesel engines.....
no real life test on diesel engines for long time high speed.....
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9842&nbsp;m3 Diesel on this ship.....
a real burner if it is hit......also lots of space is only for the Diesel.......how to trimm the ship when you have burned 5000 m3 ???

ORIGINAL: Historiker

What kind of ships would you choose for the expansion between 36 and 40, Terminus?

If I were to build a German navy pre-WWII, I'd base it on these assumptions:

- Germany can NEVER outbuild Britain in warships. Full stop, the end, never going to happen.

- The Final Battle/Grossschlacht/whatever will end in defeat for Germany, and should not be sought out.

- No sea control in the Baltic will be necessary, since we have a friendly Russia, and no NS Lebensraum garbage to contend with.

So, what does Germany need? Raiders. We can roughly split the German navy into three parts:

- Long range surface commerce raiders.

- All other surface ships.

- Submarines.

The commerce raiders, combined with the submarines, are not going to "strangle" Britain economically, but they can do a fair bit to slow her down, as well as diverting her naval assets to hunt for them.

The remainder of the surface fleet have the tasks of making sure the commerce raiders break out through a Royal Navy blockade, and contesting British sea control of the North Sea. That's it.

As for the raiders, I would propose adopting a variation of the historical USN Hunter-Killer Group. Take a long-range gun ship (something along the lines of an up-gunned Scharnhorst-type ship) and pair it with a high-endurance aircraft carrier. The gun ship can protect the carrier from enemy surface vessels, and the carrier can provide recce, ASW and CAP.

There won't be enough carriers to pair up with all the gun ships, but there'll be some.

ORIGINAL: swift

16kts cruise
pure diesel engines.....
no real life test on diesel engines for long time high speed.....

16kts aren't bad, no?
When the ships get laied down in late 1936, they'll enter service in mid 1940. That means that until mid 1940 there've already been extensive tests. So simply add the ship with a reduced range and topspeed and let it upgrade in mid 1941 or early 42 to its full capacity.

9842 m3 Diesel on this ship.....
a real burner if it is hit......also lots of space is only for the Diesel.......how to trimm the ship when you have burned 5000 m3 ???

I may be wrong, but as far as I remember, Diesel isn't easy to enflame, no? I don't think oil is that harder to enflame and just think about carbon dust explosions...
The trimming is no problem! With 820 - 845 kg/m³, Diesel has a significant lower weight than water - so if necessary: simply pump water into the empty tanks.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If I were to build a German navy pre-WWII, I'd base it on these assumptions:

- Germany can NEVER outbuild Britain in warships. Full stop, the end, never going to happen.

wrong [;)] Britain may have more shipyards ( I don't know but I guess so), but that isn't all!
a) There must be the political will to continue or participate in an arms race! After WW2, Britain wasn't the biggest navy any more - and they didn't even try to come back into this position!
b) There must be the money and the material to built the fleet. While the need for material won't be that problem in times of peace while 1/5 (or something like that) of the world is a colony of Britain, Money isn't endless. After WW2, Britain was nearly bankrupped and now assume a leftwing government that isn't willed to spend that much for arms...
c) Britain must see itself in danger! Just look at the end of WW1, where Britain itself proposed the USN to be as big as the RN in Washington! Where has the "Bigger than the next two navies" doctrin been there?

For HKD, we mustn't forget the following things:
1. The allies will conclude of the RN, the USN, Japan and the French navy! The Alliance between Japan, Britain and France is intact, so Britain can rely on them!
2. Japan will start its full expansion program like IRL in 1936 - with the big difference, that it doesn't suffer ressource shortages like IRL, so all 4 Yamatos may be built, no ship gets delayed because of shortages...
3. With the existing alliances, Russia will keep every significant ship of its fleet in the West, as it has no chanve against France, Britain and Japan (and later USA) there. So there'll be only SS and maybe a handful of Cruisers to disrupt enemy supply lines. So let's say it takes Japan 6 month, but after that, it needs only enough ships to hunt down possible TEA subs, auxiliary cruisers or other minor ships that try to sneak in and to disrupt shipping.
4. There's no Pearl Harbour and both the RN and the USN don't need significant fleets in the Pacific. Yes, both will keep a handful as well as Japan for maintenance, to project power... but I guess we can assume 90% of the big ships to be sent into the Atlantic.
5. There has been no Versailles! Germany didn't have to pay reparations while the Allies didn't recieve any. Yes, while the reparations were felt to be inhuman in Germany at that time, modern science (at least in Germany) says there weren't that cruel, but anyway, that means a stronger German economy and a weaker allied economy.
6. Germany hasn't lost any territory except some ground in Lorraine. All of Silesia is still German - and the minor polish parts may be part of Poland now, but Germany can still use its ressources...
7. Germany was able to built more ships between 1900 and 1914. If you take the known shipyards, you will find out that several of them were disengaged between other orders. Or they kept on working on ships but didn't have new ships on their slipways, yet. Moreover, even under the Kaiser, there was an approval of the Reichstag needed, where the SPD (socialist leftist) dominated. Without a law, without the money from the Reichstag, there can't be any new ships...

- The Final Battle/Grossschlacht/whatever will end in defeat for Germany, and should not be sought out.

Not necessarily! Look at the battle of Jutland, which can be assumed as German tactical victory (while a British strategic victory). Fewer ships can win a battle when they are better armed or better armoured or have a better trained crew or are grouped more efficient or manage to have local superiority or ... - simply have luck!
I would never say a German victory has to be expected, but it can't be precluded!

So, what does Germany need? Raiders. We can roughly split the German navy into three parts:

- Long range surface commerce raiders.

- All other surface ships.

- Submarines.

The commerce raiders, combined with the submarines, are not going to "strangle" Britain economically, but they can do a fair bit to slow her down, as well as diverting her naval assets to hunt for them.

To "strangle" Britain down is possible, but for that, there'll have to be decisive battles. Anyway, a British economy at 50% or lower will already be quite good...

The remainder of the surface fleet have the tasks of making sure the commerce raiders break out through a Royal Navy blockade, and contesting British sea control of the North Sea. That's it.

As for the raiders, I would propose adopting a variation of the historical USN Hunter-Killer Group. Take a long-range gun ship (something along the lines of an up-gunned Scharnhorst-type ship) and pair it with a high-endurance aircraft carrier. The gun ship can protect the carrier from enemy surface vessels, and the carrier can provide recce, ASW and CAP.

There won't be enough carriers to pair up with all the gun ships, but there'll be some.

With the existing and rearmed ships, there shall be already enough to contest the British control of the North Sea, no? The Feldmarschall class has an endurance of 10.000 which is already good, but may be better.

Subs have prooved to be to ineffective against convois and as there is a significant surface fleet, there's no need to focus on them. They will be existant, but the focus will be elsewhere.

Does it make sense to build more Panzerschiffe? They take as long ti be built as a "small" BB like the Feldmarschall class while they are much weaker. So if possible, one should prefer Feldmarschall class BBs with Diesels, no?
CAs? They proved to be bad designs as they weren't faster than fast BBs while they were armoured much to weak. But in 1936 to 1940, this might be not considered, yet. CAs with enough endurance are good against single ships or unprotected convois, but in that case one should prefer Panzerschiffe.
Feldmarschall with Diesel or H-39? The H-39 isn't that big that it's unrealistic while the Feldmarschall could be better armoured. Perhaps a mixture of both (propably the H-39 after the Feldmarschall, as their bigger Diesels will take some more time).

Two things:

- Jutland was not a German "victory" in any form. The Hochseeflotte may have sunk a number of RN capital ships, but they abandoned the field to a battle-ready enemy, and never came out again. Tactically and strategically the Germans lost.

- Britain would NEVER allow Germany to outbuild them in warships. Not a chance. The British have a naval tradition going back many, many centuries, and they would always be ahead of the continental powers. BTW, what sort of crew standards would this larger German fleet maintain?

My proposal for the expansion:

8 heavy CVs for the North Sea up to the Denmark Strait (160month)
8 light CVLs for the colonies (2 for East Africa, 2 for Southwest Africa, 2 for Westafrica, 2 for the Pacific) 13.000ts standard, 16.000 ts maximum. 35 planes, Diesels, 12-18.000 nm range (128 month; 16 each)
12 Panzerschiffe like the P-Klasse. 26.000 ts, 33kn, 16.000 nm @ 16kn, 2x28cm trippleturrets with the option to upgrade to 2x38cm doubles (168 month)
16 CA(AA) to escort the heavy CVs. Something like a slightly upgunned Admiral Hipper 4x2x20,3cm but 5 instead of 3 10,5cm AAA on each side. 33kn 6.800 nm @ 19kn, turbines no diesels (160 month)
6 Escort Carriers for LR missions in the Atlantic. 33kn 18.000 nm@ 18kn, Diesels, 50 planes, armoured, 35.000 ts. (120 month)
4 Bismarck (better protection than Feldmarschall but nearly same armement) for North Sea/ North Atlantic operations (80 month)
8 Feldmarschall with Diesels for commerce raiding (128 month)

together 944 month, so 25 month left
In this time, the construction of 6 H-39 has started.
Is it possible to construct CL like the Spähkreuzer with 15.000nm+ @16-18kn? V/max must be at 33kn, armement may be 12,8cm DP, perhaps 8 in 4x2; 9 in 3x3 or 12 in 4x3 - but most important: they should have DC to offer some protection against subs in LR missions out in the Atlantic. The ship mustn't be longer than 150m.

If we ignore that many of the ships aren't completed in 1/41 and will not enter service before late 41/early 42, the big ships of the fleet will be this in 1/41:
22 BBs: 4 old, 6 Feldmarschall Turbine (may be modernized to Diesel later), 8 Feldmarschall Diesel, 4 Bismarck
18 CV: 4 Mackensen, 8 CV North Sea, 6 LR-CVs
8 CVL
39 CA: 16 CA(AA), 12 P-Klasse Panzerschiffe, 5/11 Deutschland-Klasse Panzerschiffe (with the supply line interuption doctrine, I would recommend that all Washington Treaty CAs are built as Panzerschiff with 2x4x20,3cm but ready to be equipped with 2x3x28cm)

6 H-39 will enter service in 43/44; 10 old BBs and 14 pre-Dreads will be rearmed until late 41/mid 42

If we exclude possible wartime production and any losses, the Reichsmarine will have the following strength in 44:

38 BBs
14 pre-Dreads (listed as BC or CA)
18 CV
8 CVL
39 CA + possible rearmed but obsolete High Seas Fleet Cruisers
an unknown (needs to be discussed) number of CL, DD, TB and SS

In addition, there'll be the Yugoslavian, Polish, Finnish, Russian (major TEA), Italian (major TEA), Austrian (major TEA) ships. But while Germany will run a full expansion program at it's limit, the other major TEA navys will only be slightly expanded after 1936 as most of them focus on land forces or don't have the economy for a gigantic built program (Italy).

As I want this to be a mod that really contest the Allied sea superiority, I assume the Allied powers to have isolationist leftwing governments after 1936. So their fleet will be like it was IRL with all historic building plans continued (the French, too). Only Japan has started a gigantic expansion program.
I guess the TEA will be superior until 44, when there's a weekly arrival of a new US carrier, but we'll see.

I also think about adding (if the slots allow it - or maybe simplified classes, all eqipped with the same sort of Dreadnought) Chile (TEA), Argentina (TEA), Brasil (Allies), Spain (unsure), Portugal (maybe - for the Azores; same side as spain), Netherlands (unsure) with their 3 BC to enlarge the battlefield.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Two things:

- Jutland was not a German "victory" in any form. The Hochseeflotte may have sunk a number of RN capital ships, but they abandoned the field to a battle-ready enemy, and never came out again. Tactically and strategically the Germans lost.

Britain:
6.094 death
14 sunk ships with 115.025 ts

Germany:
2.551 death
11 sunk ships with 61.180 ts

No victory? [;)] Strategically no, but the battle itself ended in favour of the German Navy!

- Britain would NEVER allow Germany to outbuild them in warships. Not a chance. The British have a naval tradition going back many, many centuries, and they would always be ahead of the continental powers. BTW, what sort of crew standards would this larger German fleet maintain?

Well, this naval tradition was ignored when they allowed the US to get equal in/after WW1 and when they accepted to loose their importance after WW2! At which rank is the RN now? 3 or 4?
As I said, they are able to permit Germany a superior navy, but for that there must be the will and the money. History shows that both wasn't always there!

Hmmmmmm I also agree with T.
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The RN would never have allowed itself to be outbuilt by Germany - even in this fictional scenario starting with that premise while Britain is able to react i.e. pre war makes this more to the&nbsp;weird end on what ifs for me.
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ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Britain would NEVER allow Germany to outbuild them in warships. Not a chance. The British have a naval tradition going back many, many centuries, and they would always be ahead of the continental powers. BTW, what sort of crew standards would this larger German fleet maintain?

Well, this naval tradition was ignored when they allowed the US to get equal in/after WW1 and when they accepted to loose their importance after WW2! At which rank is the RN now? 3 or 4?
As I said, they are able to permit Germany a superior navy, but for that there must be the will and the money. History shows that both wasn't always there!

Historiker,

There is a big difference between what Great Britain had no choice but to accept in regards to the US, and what you believe could happen in regards to Germany's fleet. In the first, serious disagreements aside, the US and GB were more like friends than enemies which "most" of the population of both countries had accepted by the end of WW1. In regards to the continent I believe Terminus is correct when he states that GB would never allow parity with a power on her side of the pond. The facts of history support this to be the case.

Which is not to say I don't like the idea of this fantasy mod, I do. I hope that maybe the WITP2 engine will be able to support this concept better.

I know flipperwasirish...
I spoke about that to show, that "Britain will never accept a stronger navy" is wrong. Of course, there's a difference in the relation between the US and UK and Germany and UK. I don't ignore that. But as I said, it's not only the naval tradition that determines whether the RN lets another navy get bigger!

ORIGINAL: Terminus


The Graf Zeppelin may have been a "misconstruction", but consider that the Mackensen CV is also a first-off design. Also, what sort of aircraft are you putting on it? Modified air force types like on the GZ or purpose-built ones. 65 is far, far, far, FAR too many aircraft for a small carrier like this.

As for the Illustrious, that was a 23,000 ton ship, capable of carrying 33 aircraft, with slightly better deck armour than your carrier.

If the Mackensen CV's are to be conversions of the half-finished BC's Mackensen and Graf Spee, I'll have to disagree. The Mackensen class as designed had pretty much the same hull dimensions and engine power as the Kaga, so I should think 65 aircraft for the original conversion isn't unrealistic, and rather too low for a possible reconstructoin on the lines of the Japanese ships.

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Meyer Werft in Papenburg can build ships of up to 360m!

The Meyer Werft moved to its present location only in 1975. Before and during WWII, in the original location, the slip was just big enough for minesweepers and trawlers.

Wilhelmshaven had two slips. One of them was certainly big enough for Tirpitz, the other was shorter, <210 m I think. They were building three drydocks big enough for the H-class BB's (about 350X50 m), of which only one was to be used for new construction, the others for repair/conversion work. They were never finished before the end of the war; two of them were joined after the war and now are used as the basin of the Marinearsenal. (A dock of similar size, called "Elbe 17",was completed at Blohm&Voss, Hamburg, where it is still used for repair/maintenance/conversion work)

In "Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus" (History of German submarine construction) by Eberhard Rössler, there are a number of interesting if small yard plans of the major submarine building yards around 1944, comprising the major yards in Bremen, Hamburg and Kiel. (If you're interested in the development history of German submarines, this is the book to get - lots of detail). Looking at those plans, I deduce the following (slips/docks for ships of >210m):

Blohm & Voss : 3
Germaniawerft, Kiel: 1-2
Kaiserliche Werft Kiel :1-2
Howaldt, Kiel: 1
AG Weser, Bremen: 3
Schichau, Danzig: 2
Vulcan, Stettin: 1

There were lots of smaller slips, the Schichau yards in Elbing, Königsberg and Danzig had a total of 31 in 1914, but slips/docks for major ships by 1938 standards were limited.

Great mikemike, thanks!
Is there any chance we get every slipway / drydock of over 100m or even 50m?

A.G. Vulcan Hamburg: 2 ships ???
A.G. Vulcan Stettin 1 ship
A.G. Weser Bremen 3 ships
Blohm & Voß, Hamburg 3
Friedrich Krupp Germaniawerft Kiel 1-2 ships
Friedrich Schichau Danzig 2 ships
Howaldtswerke Kiel 1 ship
Kaiserliche Werft Kiel 2 ships
Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshafen / Kriegsmarinewerft: I have come to the number of 3, are you sure that it were only 2?

I don't have data how much these shipyards can build simultaniously:
H.C. Stülcken & Sohn in Hamburg-Steinwerder was able to build ships with a length of up to 150m.
Cassens-Werft in Emden can produce ships of up to 130m (so mainly DDs) but can repair ships of up to 250m
Nordseewerke GmbH in Emden can build ships of at least 200m
Neptun Rostock at least 160m

If I get the length of every slipway, we can find out which ships exactly can be built!

There were lots of smaller slips, the Schichau yards in Elbing, Königsberg and Danzig had a total of 31 in 1914, but slips/docks for major ships by 1938 standards were limited.

You are right!
A Bayern class BB had a length of only 180m while the Bismarck was already at 250m and the H-Klasse at 280m! In my expansion plan, there are 6 H-39 in time, which might be quite difficult if there are fewer slipways and drydocks of that length [;)]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
they abandoned the field to a battle-ready enemy, and never came out again.

Except that after just two weeks entire fleet (damaged BCs were replaced by Baden and Bayern) was on sea again.