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With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

ORIGINAL: lavisj

With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

A good point, but in other discussions in the past, the relationship between an aligned country and its major power has been described as "transitive" - meaning its hexes are controlled by both itself and the major power. So if that major power splits as in Vichy and FF, there is at least an argument that the minor countries go with the corresponding new major.

Another way it could work is the Dutch home country goes to France when the Netherlands is conquered. This is another question for Harry, really. In that case does the Dutch home country government pull up stakes and run off with FF? If not, then NEI and Dutch Guyana could go FF but the entity of the Netherlands would still exist since neither of those minors is conquered.

There are more possibilities here then initially meet the eye.

Edit: There was a discussion awhile back on the Yahoo list that IIRC concluded that the minors aligned to the Netherlands (and Belgium) also get aligned to the Major Power that aligns the Netherlands (and Belgium) - otherwise the cooperation issues get even more horrid.

I would think you roll once for the current home country of the minor in question, and any other subsidiary minors aligned to it would follow the results of that die roll. To do it any other way would make this trainwreck probably cause other rules trainwrecks later on. Ditto for the minor's units....these _could_ end up due to player orders in any combination of Allied, Axis, Vichy or Free hexes at the time of Vichy creation (thankfully at least the AI will make sane alignment decisions to avoid these crazy situations). It might seem simple at first to allow some of the minor units on each French 'side' but I would think later it would create issues with the supply rules, not to mention what happens upon subsequent incomplete or complete conquest of their new home country, which force pool they go in; lots of fun on the unit questions too. The convoys would be the easiest because you could just use the controlling MP CPs per the original WiF style. I've been using the CoiF minor CP counters for a long time now, just to make the map more colorful, while ignoring any silly cooperation issues.

And all of this stuff would also have to work out correctly in practice for Belgium, Spain, and Portugal in addition to the Netherlands, so there is plenty for the beta-testers to check out here I would think. All of these would be incredibly rare amongst experienced players. But amongst new players, perhaps not. There are also those rare games where Germany ends up fighting on two fronts at completely non-historical times.

Mauretania, French Sudan, Senegal, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, Upper Volta, Togo & Dahomey and Niger Colony are separate minor countries.
 
Cameroons, Gabon, Middle Congo, Ubangi-Shari and Chad are treated as one minor country.
 
French Equatorial Africa and all the units of those countries are treated as being from that one minor country.
 
All the above would all be rolled for as one Administrative Group.
 
Why are they separated as minor countries?
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf
 
When you come to peace with every major power (i.e. you are neutral again), move all your reserve units that are either on the map or the production circle to the reserve pool. Remove all reserve units in your force pools from the game.
 

 
Yes, this is under “Calling out the reserves” but it is under “Declaring war” which includes Controlling and Aligning minor countries. It states what happens when a major power or minor country comes to peace with every major power. You become a neutral major power or minor country.
 
 
If either the Netherlands or the NEI has been conquered they remain a conquered minor country.
 
 
When Vichy is installed it starts as a neutral major power “The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it”.
 
Vichy is not at war, so if unconquered the Netherlands and/or NEI are and not at war they would not be controlled by Vichy they would be neutral minor countries.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mauretania, French Sudan, Senegal, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, Upper Volta, Togo & Dahomey and Niger Colony are separate minor countries.

Cameroons, Gabon, Middle Congo, Ubangi-Shari and Chad are treated as one minor country.

French Equatorial Africa and all the units of those countries are treated as being from that one minor country.

All the above would all be rolled for as one Administrative Group.

Why are they separated as minor countries?

Hard to say other than that's how Harry designed it. Which countries you play with is variable because you can choose to play without the Africa map and/or the full America map (versus the mini-map). The concept of Admin Groups is peculiar to the Vichy rules and perhaps was intended to be a catch-all for the variability of the maps being played with.

But if you play with all the maps you can certainly have a situation where these various minors get conquered or liberated one-by-one but are still divied up for Vichy purposes by Admin Group.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

When you come to peace with every major power (i.e. you are neutral again), move all your reserve units that are either on the map or the production circle to the reserve pool. Remove all reserve units in your force pools from the game.

Yes, this is under “Calling out the reserves” but it is under “Declaring war” which includes Controlling and Aligning minor countries. It states what happens when a major power or minor country comes to peace with every major power. You become a neutral major power or minor country.


If either the Netherlands or the NEI has been conquered they remain a conquered minor country.


When Vichy is installed it starts as a neutral major power “The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it”.

Vichy is not at war, so if unconquered the Netherlands and/or NEI are and not at war they would not be controlled by Vichy they would be neutral minor countries.

Interesting point of view, but nothing says alignments are terminated when countries are neutral. If they were then the French colonies that go Vichy might not be aligned anymore.

ORIGINAL: lavisj
But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

Wrong.
You can play WiF FE with the America maps.

And MWiF haveDutch Guyana all the time.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: lavisj

With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

A good point, but in other discussions in the past, the relationship between an aligned country and its major power has been described as "transitive" - meaning its hexes are controlled by both itself and the major power. So if that major power splits as in Vichy and FF, there is at least an argument that the minor countries go with the corresponding new major.

Another way it could work is the Dutch home country goes to France when the Netherlands is conquered. This is another question for Harry, really. In that case does the Dutch home country government pull up stakes and run off with FF? If not, then NEI and Dutch Guyana could go FF but the entity of the Netherlands would still exist since neither of those minors is conquered.

There are more possibilities here then initially meet the eye.

Edit: There was a discussion awhile back on the Yahoo list that IIRC concluded that the minors aligned to the Netherlands (and Belgium) also get aligned to the Major Power that aligns the Netherlands (and Belgium) - otherwise the cooperation issues get even more horrid.

As interesting as this question might be, it is IMO completely theoretical. The CW should never pass upp the opportunity to control NEI. The oil is waaaay to important. As CW has first choice (London is closer to Amsterdam than Paris) France should never even get the chance [:)]

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.

Regards,
Oscar

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.

This suggestion is in response to the scenario where France is Vichied (or incompletely conquered) and the Netherlands is then DOWed. Japan must DOW the CW to expand. Japan need not DOW France to expand at the start (esp. of it has occupied Vichy Indochina). This alignment forces another USE roll of 28(?) and gets the US another chit per turn.

France can better use the TRS and all the other naval units as it will have impulses with nothing to do otherwise. The CW has a lot of things to do; easier for France to sail that replacemnt convoy or bring a ship into the sea zone to activate.

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

As interesting as this question might be, it is IMO completely theoretical. The CW should never pass upp the opportunity to control NEI. The oil is waaaay to important. As CW has first choice (London is closer to Amsterdam than Paris) France should never even get the chance [:)]

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.

Regards,
Oscar

Well, in the context of MWiF, it's not completely theoretical, as the computer will need to figure out what happens in this scenario (even if it's sub-optimal for the allies). And I'm not entirely convinced that this is a bad idea for the allies anyway. If NEI happens to go Vichy, and CW plays nice and doesn't DOW Vichy, then Vichy needs to send the CW 2 oil a turn as Vichy-controlled Netherlands minor country NEI is neutral. Furthermore, once US embargoes oil then NEI stops giving Japan 2 oil a turn and Japan can't even attack Vichy NEI unless Germany collapses Vichy which makes NEI free french.

Unless Harry replies back and tells me I'm wrong about this.

Hre is to hoping Harry does rebute this idea - as sound as it may be, it does not make sence to have Vichy give all 4 oil to CW and Japan not being able to attack Vichy or ocupy it as in Indochina. In other words IF the interpitation is correct, I think we've found a glitch in the rules.

If you as basing your assumption that continuing alignment/control is due to the CW’s continued controlling the NEI in the RAW7scenario.pdf consider this.
 

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf
 
Conquest: To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.
 
Incomplete conquest: Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land unit become controlled by that unit’s controlling major power (most combat factors if more than one). All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.
 
Complete conquest: When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with.
 

 
The Netherlands home country has been incompletely conquered.
 
The NEI home country has not been conquered and is controlled by the CW.
 
The CW is still at war with Germany and Italy but is not at war with Japan.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL:  paulderynck
 
Interesting point of view, but nothing says alignments are terminated when countries are neutral. If they were then the French colonies that go Vichy might not be aligned anymore.

 
 
There is also no reference to alignments of “true minor countries” continuing after the major power makes peace. And we are discussing “true minor countries” not minor countries that start as part of a major power.
 

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf
 
We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.
 
The scenario information (see 24.) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.
 

 
Scenario information (see 24.) is found in RAW7scenario.pdf.
 
When Vichy’s is installed it is a new neutral major power. So if Vichy makes peace the NEI (a “true minor country”) makes peace.
 
Minor countries that start as part of a major power follow rules for the major power making peace.
 
When “true minor countries” makes peace.
 

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf
 
If a minor makes peace and is now not at war with anyone, remove all its land and aircraft units from the game until it is next at war, upon which all its land and aircraft units are again set up as normal (see 19.4). All of the minor’s naval units remain under the control of their controlling major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).
 

 

ORIGINAL: praem

Hre is to hoping Harry does rebute this idea - as sound as it may be, it does not make sence to have Vichy give all 4 oil to CW and Japan not being able to attack Vichy or ocupy it as in Indochina. In other words IF the interpitation is correct, I think we've found a glitch in the rules.

This is quite important, if Japan does not get the 2 oils from NEI, or must attack NEI early to get this oil, this can unbalance the game greatly, even more if playing with oil.

Can this help out? from the faq.

Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
(a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the
trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Can this help out? from the faq.

Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
(a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the
trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.

That is useful for half the question: CW would keep getting the remaining oil that NEI is not giving to Japan, as per 5.1, since the trade agreement is intact and Vichy (NEI's controller) is neutral.

However, it is not helpful in the part that some of us suspect is broken in the rules, which is the fact that when the US embargoes Japan, NEI oil is cut off, even if Vichy. And then CW will be getting all 4 oil from NEI, and Japan can't attack Vichy NEI as they are on the same side, obligating Germany to collapse Vichy in 1940/1941 so that Japan can invade NEI.

One way around this would be to have a rule that allowed Japan to occupy a Vichy NEI, much like occupying a Vichy French Indochina. Unfortunately, there is no such provision in the rules.

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

ORIGINAL: Orm
...
37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Ahh, so this would be line with the other actions Japan can make against Vichy:
* Japan occupies Madagascar (15)
* Japan occupies Indo-China (12)

Yes, that’s an interesting solution to the problem. Another way is simple to add a restriction to 31 Oil embargo - Japan no longer receives any resources from the US or from the Netherlands East Indies if it’s not Axis or Vichy controlled.

It will be interesting to se what Harry’s has to say about this Netherlands East Indies trick, aligning it to France and then making the Oil embargo …I’m quite sure he did not intend for the Axis to need to collapse Vichy in order for Japan to be able to declare war on NEI and secure the oil there.

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".

Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?

ORIGINAL: obermeister

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".

Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?

The LOC Vichy system takes care of this. For the computer game at hand, we have only the rules. I had not considered the deviousness of aligning the Netherlands to France pre-fall of France. If the embargo effects a Vichy NEI, then it is a cunning strategem. Germany can collapse Vichy OR let Japan starve from no oil as Japan cannot invade Vichy NEI, and the Allies would be fools to DOW Vichy.

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

ORIGINAL: obermeister

ORIGINAL: Froonp


Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".

Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?

The LOC Vichy system takes care of this. For the computer game at hand, we have only the rules. I had not considered the deviousness of aligning the Netherlands to France pre-fall of France. If the embargo effects a Vichy NEI, then it is a cunning strategem. Germany can collapse Vichy OR let Japan starve from no oil as Japan cannot invade Vichy NEI, and the Allies would be fools to DOW Vichy.

ADG did not respond to the "No US in Europe/Pacific" strategies with any rule changes. What will be ultimately ruled on this one is anyone's guess. Personally from the number of folks saying the Allies would be nuts to align Netherlands with France it would seem this is a radical strategy too, but to my mind not as radical as the No US ones - nor even as rules abusive by a long shot. There are penalties for the Allies to do this too.

Lately I've been thinking about how to respond to it from the Axis perspective, but right now there are too many clarifications needed to figure out just how it could all play out.

Maybe Harry will rule on this soon enough for you to try it out at the Con, Steve! [;)]