Matrix Games Forums

What the heck are you guys talking about? What costs have gone down? Do you see what HPS and Matrix charge for their games? What ever money their saving by not including Manuals isn't going towards saving the consumer a few bucks.

Let's see... $50.00 for Uncommon Valor and no printed manual isn't saving me a dime. Fortress Europe, a piece of garbage they still have the nerve to charge $39.99 and no printed manual. most of the HPS games are also in the 49.99 range after initial release and no manual. The thing is these prices never go down, it's not like waiting for Best Buy to have a sale on CIV 3, these will always be high with no manual. Maybe wargames would sell better if they offered better prices and manuals. By the time you print all those manuals out or had them printed the cost of a single game gets ridiculous.

Please don't ever tell me having no manuals is a good thing thats a silly argument.

As for me, I fully expect go get MUCH more than $50 worth of entertainment out of Uncommon Valor, with or without a printed manual. Even if I had to pay another $10-20 to print a manual, I expect that I would get more than $70 worth of enjoyment out of this title.

It all comes down to cost vs. benefit to me. There are games I have purchased with great manuals that weren't worth the $25 I spent on sale at Best Buy in entertainment value.

To my way of thinking, if the entertainment value is there, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with the people who put their hard work and dedication into creating a game actually making money on the game! If they make money on said game, they will make more high entertainment value games that I will continue to have no problem spending my money on, and the world (at least my world) will be a better place.

A printed manual would be nice (I am a manual hound, as I mentioned in another post), but I am buying a game I expect to play several hundered hours on, and a high quality .pdf manual is by no means going to offset the huge amount of entertainment and enjoyment (far more than $50 worth) I plan on getting from this title.

Heck, if the game is half as good as it looks from the AARs and the website, I may end up having to send 2by3 a tip!

SKillelea

Heck , let's not forget shipping cost on top of the printing cost, and the high game cost.

Anyone want my copy of Fortress Europe for $40.00?.....I didn't think so.

Matrix will get away with charging anything short of 3 digits for the simply fact that UC is the ONLY game of its type made int he last ten years for computer, and frankly, if they want to charge high prices or skip manuals, they have every right to do so. Furthermore, since I am an avid PTO buff, and this is the ONLY strategy game to cover the theater in about a decade, and it promises to be of a high calibur, I will undoubtedly buy. Just do not tell me that leaving out printed manuals is a good thing done for the benefit of the consumer.

If Matrix makes the manual and ships it with the game, the game might have to cost $55-60 dollars. They will not "Pass on" the savings of not having to print a manual. Why should they? They have worked long and hard on the game and deserve a decent profit margin whether or not they provide a printed manual.

By keeping the price at $50, they will sell more games than at $60. More games sold equals both more profit for Matrix and quite possibly, more capital to put toward developing more games. More excellent games definitely benefits the consumer.

So while the immediate consequences of no printed manual do not benefit the consumer, the long term consequences could (and should assuming the game sells well).

If you don't want to buy a game without a manual, then by all means don't. Just, please don't look at us as a crazy for purchasing this great game for $50. I enjoy printed manuals too, but I buy a game for the game, not the manual. If I want a good book, I go to Amazon.com.

The argument that not having a printed manual saves money for the publisher is ludicrous. The cost is passed on to the consumer, so it ultimately costs the publisher Nothing.

The cost of printing a 200 page bound manual is 2-3 dollars at most (depends on quantities ordered), a cost most gamers would be willing to pay, I'm sure. One of the reasons Matrix said there wouldn't be a printed manual is that it won't fit in the box. I'm asuming they have a somewhat standard CD box they ship their games in, if so, changing this for one game would cost them money.

I've seen the argument that the size of the company should affect the cost, again as a consumer thats irrelevant to me. I'm not going to pay more for a product simply because the company that makes it is smaller than it's competitors.

Some people are using the argument that UV is a great game and therefore justifies it's price(or more), but only people who have played the finished product can make that statement with any authority.

Personally There are a plenty of games that sounded great in forums, faqs, adds and reviews but simply didn't hold up for long term gameplay (Harpoon anyone?). Obviously you can debate game quality all you want, but I have loads of games on my shelf that came with boxes/manuals/etc that I got hundreds of hours of play from and cost less than 50 bucks, therefore, as a consumer its the only "yardstick" I can use.

As someone said it's a cost/benefit thing. How much game-play time will you get for any given purchase. Having sundries(manuals, maps, boxes, hotkey cards, unit cards, etc) helps alleviate the initial "purchase apprehension". Of course its only the gameplay that ultimately matters.

All that being said, I'm still going to buy Uncommon Valor, but I won't be initially pleased about spending that amount of money and getting only a CD (and maybe a map), and only game-play time will (or won't) alleviate that.

Originally posted by ratster
The argument that not having a printed manual saves money for the publisher is ludicrous. The cost is passed on to the consumer, so it ultimately costs the publisher Nothing.

The cost of printing a 200 page bound manual is 2-3 dollars at most (depends on quantities ordered), a cost most gamers would be willing to pay, I'm sure. One of the reasons Matrix said there wouldn't be a printed manual is that it won't fit in the box. I'm asuming they have a somewhat standard CD box they ship their games in, if so, changing this for one game would cost them money.

Ratster, you are making my point exactly!

I know the cost is passed on to the consumer, but it does cost the publisher something........additional sales and therefore, profits. Less people will be willing to pay for the game at the higher price.

That price will be higher than just the additional 2-3 dollar cost of the manual itself. They have to make up for the time to select a publisher and answer all the questions of paper quality, size, binding, delivery time, and price negotiations. You mentioned yourself the larger box size. Larger boxes take up additional warehouse/storage space. Larger, heavier boxes also add to shipping costs that people (especially overseas) are already upset at Matrix about. You have to think like a business person and think of total cost.

I think Matrix is making the best sense choice given their situation. I realize that is just my humble opinion and you are welcome to yours too.:p

I know the cost is passed on to the consumer, but it does cost the publisher something........additional sales and therefore, profits. Less people will be willing to pay for the game at the higher price.

Using that logic they should make the price 10,000 dollars a copy and a only burn 10 cds, saving the maximum amount of production costs. :p

The point is most games on the market that cost 50 bucks come with a printed manual(among other things). Obviously the raising the price affects sales, but at what point it becomes counter productive is highly speculative at best. Not including a printed manual will also affect sales IMO.

They have to make up for the time to select a publisher and answer all the questions of paper quality, size, binding, delivery time, and price negotiations.

Yeah that extra 10 minutes on the phone is really cost prohibitive, lol.

You mentioned yourself the larger box size. Larger boxes take up additional warehouse/storage space. Larger, heavier boxes also add to shipping costs that people (especially overseas) are already upset at Matrix about. You have to think like a business person and think of total cost.

Warhouse! are you serious, were not talking cars here, were talking about essentially tiny boxes.

As for shipping cost, the extra weight a manual adds is neglible. There's always a minimum cost associtaed with shipping anything regardless of weight, having a manual in general doesn't add much if anything to the shipping cost.

The only added cost would be if they need to create a new box, however, if thats so then they have no intention of making manauls for any of their games, so its a choice that they should own up to at the start instead of "beating around the bush". Conversly ,if its not a pre-design choice, then the cost is the same(for the box) with or without a manual in mind.

It's a pointless debate, its their product, they can charge whatever they want. Its up to each individual to decide whether or not that price is acceptable, by whatever criteria they deem relevant.

I would say most people on this forum are pre-disposed to purchasing the game (including me) regardless of price(within sane reasoning), that being said, caveat emptor.

Its 44.95 just ordered.

Just placed my order!

Placed order - hope system runs better than a year ago, when it was a disaster for matrix - to all - order - these guys deserve our support!

Just pre-ordered my copy. Can't wait to play it later this month, right?

Also, about all this manual stuff going on. The manuals included with most of the games I've purchased in the past few year, haven't been worth the paper they are printed on. So, based on my experience, I don't mind a PDF manual. This way, I can print the stuff I might need for the first few games and leave all the fluff on the hard drive.

I could care less. I'd rather have a manual in the game interface, like Europa Universalis 2. Point and read.

The early version of the manual that I have seen is worth every electron you use to read it. It is extensive, detailed and extremely useful. IMHO it certainly exceeds the standard of most printed manuals that I have ever received with other games (particularly in the last few years). The inclusion of hyperlinks etc. actually make it easier to use than a printed manual.

I agree with Ron that having it available through the game interface would be particularly sweet. However, I will say that I have not had any problem ALT-TABing out of the game to the desktop to read the manual, write AAR notes etc. I know this practice is not endorsed or supported by the developers but it does seem to be pretty stable (at least in XP). Of course I always save the game before I try it

I run Windows Me and I have never had a problem using Alt Tab. The manual is very detailed. In fact after weeks of playing the game I am still finding little bits of useful information. Todays bit....Make sure you set the level of ASW when you assigin a SQ to ASW duty. Otherwise it will be at zero and none of the planes will fly.

Rick

I for one am glad the manual is extensive, for new comers to the game such as myself I'll need all the help I can get.

Originally posted by Kid
Todays bit....Make sure you set the level of ASW when you assigin a SQ to ASW duty. Otherwise it will be at zero and none of the planes will fly.

Rick

What level have you found best......low? Medium? Or High?

I have it set at 100% right now. I will let you know if I get results.

Originally posted by Kid
I have it set at 100% right now. I will let you know if I get results.

OIC, when you said "level" I was thinking "hight":rolleyes:

Placed my order yesterday. Can wait for the game. I find myself here at least twice a day eventhough I know it won't ship til at least the 15th.

I like manuals also, but the drought on these games has been so long brothers I don't care if I get a pdf. file in swahilli. Ship me the game I'll figure it out. Or someone here will help me.

Thank you Matrix