Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Probably a really dumb question, but could these map issues explain some of the cases of infantry being wiped out by MGs when they appear to be under cover, or overly accurate mortar fire? Maybe the targeted troops are standing on top of a bare hill as far as the program is concerned, and not in the ditch or behind the wall that shows on the map?

No, see the MG42 thread. Protection values were intentionally changed in the Elements file and weapon values were also changed by the developers. Thus, you will see squads getting wiped out easily even when behind good cover like a stone wall. Hopefully they will fix this in the upcoming patch.

Any chance someone's going to go back and look at the maps for tLD and WAR?

That's already been done and the maps were included in the beta patch that is available. The two maps that had problems have already been fixed. Schoenbert and Setz. The Setz.txt file is available through the WaR forums. The TLD maps were checked prior to the beta patch release and were included in that patch. If you happen to be finding additional problems please report them in their respective forums with any pertinent details explaining the problem and they'll get taken care of.

Y'all should cut Mick a check for proof-reading all those maps.

Thanks. I saw that after posting the above. My bad.

My Nazi Static troops (aka the 'Statisticians') have Grave Bridge well defended...or so they thought. The AI, seeing the map code where players only see the pretty picture, sends a team into the shallow waters of the Maas, then leaps its GIs 20 meters onto the bridge. How'd they do that?

Turns out the Under Bridge element coding (purple boxes), intended to prevent such acrobatics, has some gaps in its coverage - at the approach, at the stone pier, and at the shallow water (green circles).

Also, why is the island on the other side of the Maas coded as 'Out of Bounds' when its connected to the shore by dock and footbridge?

@Doggie - only 4937 more verifiable bug reports and I'll earn a dollar off at the Matrix store!!!

Man....This is really screwed up.....

Best thing Ive done was stop playinf LSA till the patch....[:@]

Is the same person who has drawn the map and who has coded it?

ORIGINAL: xe5

After numerous examples pointing to categorical errors w/r/t map elevations, you might expect those 'laborers of love' to announce a comprehensive review of the issue rather than "Five maps with elevation issues. They'll be taken care of. If you find others please post them. Thanks"

Some of us are somewhat less incognito than others. IIRC, the original CC2 'hate train' led to a pretty vigorous mod community [;)]

I think it was the cc3 h8 train that led to a vigorous mod community.

ORIGINAL: CaptRio

Man....This is really screwed up.....

Best thing Ive done was stop playinf LSA till the patch....[:@]

I'm guessing it has more to do with the nature of maps are drawn and coded. Clearly they aren't using the most modern method here, so I think that opens the doors for errors slipping in more than we'd normally expect.

At the same time, testers are everything. It's not about just playing a game to see "ohhh that was fun." You have to intentionally try to do everything and anything you can to see what happens. xe5 is doing just that by exploring map elevation relations. I applaud him for it. In the end his hard work helps us all.

I do agree though, waiting for a patch might not be the worst idea in the world.

@Greg: leakage from the CC3 beta group starting in late summer '98 only added fuel to the anti-Atomic rebellion brewing since earlier in the year. All those CC2 data bugs everybody bitched about led to Bruce Ralston's 'Real Para' & 'Real Yank' mods.

ORIGINAL: xe5

The AI, seeing the map code where players only see the pretty picture, sends a team into the shallow waters of the Maas, then leaps its GIs 20 meters onto the bridge. How'd they do that?

Turns out the Under Bridge element coding (purple boxes), intended to prevent such acrobatics, has some gaps in its coverage - at the approach, at the stone pier, and at the shallow water (green circles).

Also, why is the island on the other side of the Maas coded as 'Out of Bounds' when its connected to the shore by dock and footbridge?

Will have to check the "gaps" you may have found. That is not an expected result. What your illustration doesn't show is that "bridge wall" element lines both sides of the entire span of the bridge and your troops should NOT be able to cross those elements when coded 1 element wide side to side. So either there's an incorrect value in the elements file or there's a gap in the bridge wall where elements are meeting corner to corner rather than side to side. It would also depend upon how you deployed your troops. If some were on the bridge and some off that might be another possible explanation. We have enough to go on to check this out so we'll have a look. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

FYI - 'Under bridge' element will NOT prevent movement only allow the passing of troops and LOS underneath the bridge. In this case the 'bridge wall' element should be providing that function. If troops couldn't move into the underbridge element they'd not be able to pass under the bridge. There'd be no trigger. [;)]

The island is coded as it is to prevent the AI from deploying on that island.

I propose we change it's name (Out of Bounds) to  "Impassable"  or "Impassabe Terrain"

Yep I recall you suggesting that before. Good suggestion.

What do items 1-7 have in common? Theyre all as high or higher than the raised roads on this map.

1. stone debris - 1 meter
2. wood debris - 1 meter
3. grass field - .5 meter
4. short post - 1.5 meter
5. stone fence - 1 meter
6. crops - 1 meter
7. bush - 1 meter

Elevation of raised dirt roads on Grafwegen - .5 meter
Should be 2 - 2.5 meters.

Fields vs Grass Fields - field terrain elements have 0 meters of height; grass fields have .5 meters of height. Therefor, the smoother 'lawnish' ground cover (eg. #3) is the more likely candidate to be coded as field than the area top left that is coded as field but s/b grass field.

ORIGINAL: xe5

What do items 1-7 have in common? Theyre all as high or higher than the raised roads on this map.

1. stone debris - 1 meter
2. wood debris - 1 meter
3. grass field - .5 meter
4. short post - 1.5 meter
5. stone fence - 1 meter
6. crops - 1 meter
7. bush - 1 meter

Elevation of raised dirt roads on Grafwegen - .5 meter
Should be 2 - 2.5 meters.

Fields vs Grass Fields - field terrain elements have 0 meters of height; grass fields have .5 meters of height. Therefor, the smoother 'lawnish' ground cover (eg. #3) is the more likely candidate to be coded as field than the area top left that is coded as field but s/b grass field.

Thanks for the relative elevation and coding suggestions Mick. This one has already been addressed and the new text file will be in update #2. BTW what was the elevation of that road when you created the example?

Most of the elevated roads on Grafwegen are at 1.5 meters. Portions of those elevated roads, as shown below, are coded at 1 meter (02). The rest of the map is at 1 meter.

Thanks. So it wasn't coded as flat but actually had a rise to it. I agree it should have been made to be higher in elevation and closer to the 2 -2.5 meters you mentioned. As I said the guys have already taken care of it.

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Greg: leakage from the CC3 beta group starting in late summer '98 only added fuel to the anti-Atomic rebellion brewing since earlier in the year. All those CC2 data bugs everybody bitched about led to Bruce Ralston's 'Real Para' & 'Real Yank' mods.

Agreed, but it didn't become 'vigorous' until cc3.

CC2 was played on the zone, which was the major h2h meeting place, dwarfing all others, and it wasn't common to have a mod installed to play. CC3 on the other hand found that the majority of games to be played required real red at the minimum.

ORIGINAL: CaptRio

Man....This is really screwed up.....

Best thing Ive done was stop playinf LSA till the patch....[:@]

I guess I'm just not a stickler for detail. I really hadn't noticed all the problems with the maps. I don't get why people get so worked up about mismatched elevations and stuff like that. It's just a game. You'd think it was a major life crisis or something.