Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse



Brady,

Yes, US forces did have anti-tank rifle grenades available for the M1903 rifle at the start of the war (details below). I don't know how widely they were distributed, tho.


Grenade, Rifle, Antitank, M9 introduced in 1941, this type of Rifle Grenade consisted of an explosive charge packed in a sheet metal body, with rounded ogive, stabilizer tube and fin assembly . The warhead contained a ¼ lb shaped TNT charge and an impact detonating fuze, while the stabilizer held a blank cartridge used to propel the grenade . This grenade will normally detonate upon impact with a hard resistant body or surface . Range is about 75 yards, armor penetration almost 2 inches . Used with M1 (Rifle M1903A1) and M2 Grenade Launchers (Rifle M1917) . A special cartridge, i.e. Cartridge, Rifle Grenade, M3 must be used for projecting this grenade . Basic color; yellow with black markings, replaced by olive drab color + yellow markings in 1942 . M9 and M9A1 Antitank Rifle Grenades are packed in kits of 10 grenades, a launcher for either rifle version, sights and a recoil boot, a special cartridge is packed with each grenade in a cellophane wrapper (inserted in grenade tube) .

Grenade, Rifle, Antitank, M9A1 : improved type of Rifle Grenade introduced in 1942, this model became the std. Antitank Rifle Grenade throughout WWII . It was lighter, had a better aerodynamic shape, its fuze and detonator were relocated, while armor penetration was increased to 4 inches . The fuze is more sensitive and will function upon impact with soft earth ! Range was now 250 yards . At first, color was yellow with black markings, later replaced by olive drab + yellow markings . Used with M1 (Rifle M1903A1-M1903A3) M7 (Rifle M1) and M8 Launchers (Carbine M1) . Although primarily intended for use against armored vehicles, also most effective against enemy personnel and pillboxes .

NB: Some sources say the M9A1 wasn't fielded until 1943.

ORIGINAL: Brady
Para's- The IJN and the IJA deployed AT guns on Para operations by flying them in, the IJA loaded theirs into a Ki-21 and crash landed it to bring the weapon into action during the Palambang operation, the IJN at Manado used a Mavis to fly one into Lake Tondano, actualy two Mavis were deployed one with the AT gun and 10 men the other with the medical section. The 3.7 cm AT could not be air droped.

Para squad compasation varied and became more robust as the war went on.

I can get very detailed if you like but this excesise may prove to be a futile one.

In game Japanse squad size does not match real wolrd squad size, the game squad size tends to average from 18 to 20 men in some cases. Simply reverse engenering the number of sqauds for some units compared to their real world figures will prove this out.

IJA para used the Type 100 SMG throught the war in increasing numbers, 100 per regement being noted by a veterin in use by 1944 in the Philipines.

SNLF troops did have SMG's (some).

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
SMG's get a rating of at most of 0.5 per gun not 2 in the rating system

Sorry but as I said before picking one squad type in one nation to play with is going to lead to major inconsistencies if you want to apply this rational across the board.

ORIGINAL: Brady
What I think happened is that the Men from the AT section droped sans their Guns, or with the 20mm AT rifle, but my referance does not specify, I could make inqueirs though.

SMG, Andy is right in that adding imo a value of 2 per SMG in a squad would be over the top, SMG's were realy only a limited range weapon and if you think back to ASL a Russian Squad equiped entirely with them was a 6-2-moral # squad. A rifle squad, non LMG included like a SS squad or a us squad would be 6-6-6 as aposed to a 4-4-7 Japanese squad, LMG speperae at a 2-6 rating with ROF of 2 (I think).

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

out of 20 ish points maybe 7 or 8 come from the rifles in a squad the rest come from squad level automatic weapons, or share of platoon and company level assets like 2" morters, LMG sections, sniper sections, flamethrowers maybe some attached MMG's or whatever

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
For determining squad firepower ratings, a semi-automatic rifle is twice as good as a bolt-action rifle, and a submachine gun is better than either.

Well, if standard organization was 3 Companies*3 platoons*2 squads=that gives us 18 squads in Regiment. 100/18=5-6, same as I calculated earlier

B Type- (54 men)Company 4 sections of 13 men [3 LMG sections 1 GD section(3 GD's) included] The game compreses this to 3 squads. Page 32 TM-E 30-480

SNLF troops were equiped sparsely with the Bergman SMG prewar, and they were still in use during WW2, but agian sparingly, Some RGC troops also had these wepaosn as some were built in China, but again not a lot were on hand.

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I see the bottom line as the offical scenarios are not going to be changed

so this probably needs to go into a mod and be discussed in the scenario Design and Modding subforum.

ORIGINAL: Brady

p.49 Japanese paratroop forces of WW2,- On the night of December 14th Capt. Ohmura and 35 men of his Heavy Weapons Company, 4th Raiding regement Droped...

This is why I think they droped with out their AT guns,

Edit- Taki cleared this up, Ohmura's troops droped with 2 HMG's and one Infentry Mortar.

Raiding Regement in 1944:

Regimentail HQ
1st,2nd and 3rd rifle companys
Engineer Company
Heavy Weaponsy Company
Company HQ
AT Gun Platoon (4x3.7cm AT guns/8cm mortars0
Infentry gun Platoon (4x7cm infentry guns)
MG Platoon (2x HMG's)

The raiding regement had 816 men, armed with 455x 7.7mm Type 2 rifles, 769 x 8mm Type 94 pistoles, 27 x 7.7mm Type 99 LMG's 6x 7.7mm Type 92 HMGs, 4 x 7cm infentry guns 4 x 3.7cm Type 94 AT guns or 4 8cm Type 97 trench mortars. The Enginear company had 3 (1943) flamethrowers and explosives.

As I noted above their were round 100 SMG's in each regement, in leu of rifles, the SMG's were not listed on the oficial TOE records (p.63)

SNLF squads were armed diferently than late war IJA para squads, see above, my info on IJN (SNLF) Bergman use is that it was limited, you might find some (and probably would) in most SNLF units but not enough to be counted in game I should think, the smae goes for the RGC and the Allied Chinese forces who also had some SMG's.

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Brady
The weapons platoon is represented in the TOE as such, the MG squads for all nations,other than the squad afik.

Hi Brady. Sort of, but not exactly. A noun is only the name of a thing, it is not the thing itself. So a “squad” is a squad but is factored.

So far as MGs go, all LMGs are supposed to be incorporated into squads, and only “MMGs” and “HMGs” are separated out into Sections (of 2 guns). However there were some actual separate LMG units (i.e., the Brit carrier platoons) that compelled definition of Bren Sections that model these. Otherwise, ALL LMGs are supposed to go into squads. So the M1919s of weapons platoon get folded into the squad, as do the 60mm mortars, and as do the Bren team and the 2” mortars of the Brit HQ company echelon – men and firepower proportionally distributed.

In the AE world, the Japanese T-92 isn’t a HMG, it is a MMG. The MMG is a .30 cal with a sustained rate of fire: represented by the water cooled, belt fed, Vickers and M1917. The T-92 was strip fed, aircooled, but had a decent mount, so frankly I gave it a gift and made it a MMG – a mag-fed MMG, and a teensy skoosh more effective than a belt-fed LMG but a MMG nevertheless.

In the AE world, at least the way I originally set it up, only MMGs and HMGs (.50 cal things like M2HBs and 13.2s) get collected into MG Sections (squads), with the exception, of course, of the separate Bren units (Brits always have to be different).

So squads … The US squad gets a proportion of the men and the firepower of the 2 M1919s and the 3 60mm mortar teams from weapons platoon. The Japanese don’t, because their weapons platoon T-92s are affirmatively included as separate MMG Sections. Proportionality is everything – a place for everything, and everything in its place. Everything is included, in one way or another. And don’t forget you have to account for the Support Squads, so that’s where the ammo platoon, the gun humpers, etc.. get accounted for.

Basically, it’s a three way solution. Getting the TOTAL number of men right, in a unit, for transport purposes, and then getting the RELATIVE number of squads right for AV purposes and then getting the RELATIVE firepower values per squad right. And so we end up with everybody’s divisions having the troop count they actually did, and differentially load onto transports like the actually did, and Japanese units have about 20% higher AV than an equivalent Allied unit, as they actually did, and Allied units have anywhere from –5% to 50% more firepower than an equivalent Japanese unit, as they actually did.

As usual thanks for the explanation JWE.

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

(1) The Western Allies did not encounter Japanese A-Type divisions because the IJA did not form any A-Type divisions. However, they did form reinforced B-Type (B-Type = standard organization) which were encountered by the Allies (for example, 2nd Division, encountered at Guadalcanal was such a division). Allied wartime intelligence (and the 'Japanese Army Handbook' is based on US wartime sources) was neither precise nor (in many cases) correct when it came to the IJA.

(2) Captain Ohmura (in your link) is referring to his 37mm Anti-tank Guns and not to anti-tank rifles.

ORIGINAL: Brady

Mortar- I asked and it is unknown, though the TOE for this unit states 80mm mortars or 3.7cm AT gun. The Weapons Company had was Ohmuras company it had the mortars and the HMG's and the 3,7cm At guns.

The At secton was equped with eiter the 3.7 cm AT gun or the 81mm mortar as I note above, they did not deploy with the AT gun, so what he is likely refering to are the men from this section, and like all other IJA troops they were likely equiped with some sorta AT weapon.

IJA para troopers droped with a pistole, all Para Troopers were asigned a side arm to use untill they found their weapons container.

The LMG's and the other HMG Gunners would not carry a rifle.

I am unclear as to how the SNLF troops were organised, I nead to review some stuff on that.

ORIGINAL: Brady

Ohmura-They were short on Transports so not all the men in the Unit could go.

The Numbers are of for some reasion your right, unless its becuase of the SMG's not being counted.

SNLF- I did find referances for them using rifle Gernades, Type 97 20 mm AT gun should be considered rare as only 400 were built.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Brady

Ohmura-They were short on Transports so not all the men in the Unit could go.

Oh yeah. So that means, that their loses were even smaller. Still, mortars are light enough to send them with troops.

The Numbers are of for some reasion your right, unless its becuase of the SMG's not being counted.

Now, that would mean, that there was much more, than 100 SMGs. Even up to 300, but that would be close to 100% Rifles in squads.

SNLF- I did find referances for them using rifle Gernades, Type 97 20 mm AT gun should be considered rare as only 400 were built.

Strange grip, but it seems to be spigot launcher, which were reported to be used by SNLF. What year it is?
I have found reference to 10000 of 20mm AT Rifles. I was actually considering, if Japan did not restarted production, after 1941, as Taki mentions, they were halted after USSR incident. Not, that later they have any alternate weapon. They are mentioned far too frequently, and 400 is enough to cover only 5 Divisions, unless they were all transferred from Manchuria. But weapon was not especially complicated, or expensive, so no reason to simply produce more.

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: Brady
Para's- The IJN and the IJA deployed AT guns on Para operations by flying them in, the IJA loaded theirs into a Ki-21 and crash landed it to bring the weapon into action during the Palambang operation, the IJN at Manado used a Mavis to fly one into Lake Tondano, actualy two Mavis were deployed one with the AT gun and 10 men the other with the medical section. The 3.7 cm AT could not be air droped.

In that case it is clear proof, that Captain Fumio Ohmura could not speak of any AT gun, unless they "borrowed" it from infantry. So there was some form of anti-tank unit.

Para squad compasation varied and became more robust as the war went on.

I can get very detailed if you like but this excesise may prove to be a futile one.

In game Japanse squad size does not match real wolrd squad size, the game squad size tends to average from 18 to 20 men in some cases. Simply reverse engenering the number of sqauds for some units compared to their real world figures will prove this out.

We need only number of special weapons, as that is main ingredient in firepower, and figure out some average TOE.
For example, every SMG will increase Soft Attack by 2.

IJA para used the Type 100 SMG throught the war in increasing numbers, 100 per regement being noted by a veterin in use by 1944 in the Philipines.

Well, if standard organization was 3 Companies*3 platoons*2 squads=that gives us 18 squads in Regiment. 100/18=5-6, same as I calculated earlier.

SNLF troops did have SMG's (some).

Anything more? Was it standard issue? What about 20mm AT Rifles? Were they using them?

Now 20mm AT Rifle causes some problems.
(a) it is semi-automatic, and should have its own Soft Attack
(b) it came with 10 person crew
So, every squad should get 2/9th (2 Rifles per Company) of those values, so probably, at least, 1-2 extra "weight", and Soft Attack.
That would put IJA squad at:
HA 10-15 SA 21-22 Weight 18-19
Strenghtened IJA squad at
HA 10-15 SA 23-24 Weight 20-21

Now, SNLF.
There was 16 units at war beginning. Taking standard organization at 2 Companies*4 platoons*3 squads=that gives us 24 squads (+-Company probably in some cases). Even getting minimum of 2 soldiers per LMG, that leaves us with 13 people in squad-(2 LMG*2 crew of LMG)=9 soldiers with hand weapons. 9 soldiers*24 squads*16 SNLF units=3456 needed SMGs for line infantry, far below reported 6000 imports, or 10000 early Japan production. There is enough SMGs to equip every line SNLF soldier.
I would say, LMGs had standard 4 person crews, that would leave around 5 men for assault unit.
So, as a foundation we should get strenghtened squad, it have 22 Soft Attack, and 19 weight.
22 Soft Attack+second LMG (7mm AA have SA of 7, so lets say 6) 6+5 guys with SMGs (5*2=10)10=38.
SNLF squad Soft Attack 38, weight 19. Probably at least one spigot launcher, so SA 39. Still I am keeping it low, as SMGs probably will give more. How many SA are for 5 guys with Rifles?

It actually seems, that Paras were modelled after SNLF squad. Maybe in their "assault unit" was 5 SMGs, and commander with pistol (?), and sword? Or in SNLF there was 3 guys per LMG, so that gives 6 for "assault unit", and one Squad Commander.