Early war strategy for Allies

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: witpqs



Not in AE.

I am holding the printed manual:
Page 255

Which states:

Replacement ships are generated if the option is selected for the scenario...

And the stock scenarios do not have that option enabled. You can mod it in if you wish.

witpqs -

Read about this long ago, but had completely forgotten about the editor switch.

Am always learning (or relearning, in this case) something new or forgotten.

As a first time Allied Player (switching from the Dark Side), my thanks to you all.

Mac

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan


Read about this long ago, but had completely forgotten about the editor switch.

I'm playing a Scen 2 game with the switch on.

I'm about to perhaps lose USS Enterprise for the second time. It'll be a close call.

[Big B]

I can only shake my head at the demeaning phrase "Sir Robin Defense" - with the obvious implication being out and out cowardice.

It may not be as 'fun' for the Japanese player - but the only drawback to a rapid strategic redeployment and concentration of force as the Allies in the game is that you cannot 'as an Allied player' leave the scorched earth and destruction of all strategic facilities behind you as you withdraw - as can and was done repeatedly throughout history.
As for the military principle of concentration of force (as opposed to isolated & piecemeal destruction) - concentration of force for the defensive or offensive is the most basic military tenet since Plataea, 479 BCE.


That being said - the most unusual early war Allied strategic policy I ever pulled off in a PBEM was actually in old WitP.
What we did in that game was a rapid concentration and resupply of of Bataan, Singapore, & Java.
This was an unusual game, in that everyone was free to move on Dec 7th - consequently the Japanese players assumed PH would be empty and therefore did not send the KB to pay a visit (big mistake...everything stayed there - and now was undamaged on Dec 8th - and then disappeared into the vast Pacific. The alternate Japanese sweep of the South China Sea payed little dividends).

We lost 40 some AK's resupplying Bataan and Singapore in January, and Bataan eventually fell - but Singapore held with the extra supply, troops, and a lot of gathered air power.

With the Japanese thus distracted, the entire Pacific Fleet and Royal Navy each combined, and then convoyed every available Division, AA unit, Arty unit, armored unit, base-force, engineer unit, and air unit first to Australia, and then on to Western Java by late March/April 1942 in a surprise reinforcement landing in strength (and an ensuing surprise Jutland-in-the-Pacific/Battle-of-Midway).

Needless to say, with over 10 reinforced Divisions, HQ's, support, & over 1,000 new combat aircraft (fighters and bombers) - Java did not fall - and Japan never got the D.E.I. resources flowing. That game didn't get past April '42.

Probably wouldn't have been feasible if PH was attacked as usual...


B

[USSAmerica]

I can only shake my head at the demeaning phrase "Sir Robin Defense" - with the obvious implication being out and out cowardice.

I have nothing bad to say about it and happen to be a big fan. [;)]

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: USS America

I can only shake my head at the demeaning phrase "Sir Robin Defense" - with the obvious implication being out and out cowardice.

I have nothing bad to say about it and happen to be a big fan. [;)]

Gents -

Can only agree with you. Each individual implements the above in differing ways; as he or she sees fit.

I plan to fight where I can, intelligently (now there's a scary concept <grin>), and run where it is not feasible to stand. The goal is to extract the highest cost with the smallest loss in the process.

To the veteran (by whatever definition) posters on the forum - your advice, thoughts and tactics are priceless - even when very different from another's. While I am becoming technically competent - reading and studying the rules, with a growing understanding of the game mechanics, plus spending the time and thought in planning the next turn; it is the posts and AAR's on this forum that give me the guidance to formulate and solidify what to do next.

Well - that's it.

Mac

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: USS America

I can only shake my head at the demeaning phrase "Sir Robin Defense" - with the obvious implication being out and out cowardice.

I have nothing bad to say about it and happen to be a big fan. [;)]

Bravely bold Sir Robin
Sailed forth from his safe port.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin.

He was not in the least bit scared
To be sunk by Yamato.
Or to have his cruisers torpedoed
And his destroyers sunk.
To have his merchants defenceless
And his carriers under the sea,
And then to see KB show up,
Brave Sir Robin.

His divisions crushed
And bombers shot down
And aces killed
And bases taken
And airfields holed
And forts burned down
And his pen--



Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.

****Bravely**** taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!
("I never!")

[USSAmerica]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan


Read about this long ago, but had completely forgotten about the editor switch.

I'm playing a Scen 2 game with the switch on.

I'm about to perhaps lose USS Enterprise for the second time. It'll be a close call.

Cripes Bullwinkle - did you let Halsey command Enterprise again after he got her sunk the first time! [:D]

[Jim Stevens]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

My 2 cents,

KB if intact is too dangerous to fight. I have never permanently held PI or Malaya, though I have had PI in May.

I would classify appropriate allied strategy in the earliest months as one of building hub bases while surface raiding, pulsing air combats, and opportunitist counterinvasions (when you know where the KB isnt!) Subs can bag 30+ cargos per month alone if you place them right. Do that from the beginning. One of the big early decisions is how many assets to consume in the defense of the DEI - and how. IMHO, the war is logisitics at its base. The longer you deny the DEI the better off the allies are in general.

A lot depends on the empire strategy. If they over-expand, life is generally much easyier for the allies by 43.

What or who is KB?

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

ORIGINAL: topeverest

My 2 cents,

KB if intact is too dangerous to fight. I have never permanently held PI or Malaya, though I have had PI in May.

I would classify appropriate allied strategy in the earliest months as one of building hub bases while surface raiding, pulsing air combats, and opportunitist counterinvasions (when you know where the KB isnt!) Subs can bag 30+ cargos per month alone if you place them right. Do that from the beginning. One of the big early decisions is how many assets to consume in the defense of the DEI - and how. IMHO, the war is logisitics at its base. The longer you deny the DEI the better off the allies are in general.

A lot depends on the empire strategy. If they over-expand, life is generally much easyier for the allies by 43.

What or who is KB?

The KB is the Kido Butai (striking force? iirc), which in game terms is used to describe the IJN carrier fleet. In the early days this will just be the Pearl Harbor attackers. An additional 'Mini KB' is sometimes formed by grouping the IJN CVLs and CVEs together. The KB can be added to as additional ships become available or split to form two (or more) slightly smaller KBs.

As the Allied player, your main task at sea is to not be where the KB is. The huge numbers of airframes crewed by high exp crews will destroy most things that get in their way. This is especially true given the relative inferiority of the Allied carrier fighters.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

ORIGINAL: topeverest

My 2 cents,

KB if intact is too dangerous to fight. I have never permanently held PI or Malaya, though I have had PI in May.

I would classify appropriate allied strategy in the earliest months as one of building hub bases while surface raiding, pulsing air combats, and opportunitist counterinvasions (when you know where the KB isnt!) Subs can bag 30+ cargos per month alone if you place them right. Do that from the beginning. One of the big early decisions is how many assets to consume in the defense of the DEI - and how. IMHO, the war is logisitics at its base. The longer you deny the DEI the better off the allies are in general.

A lot depends on the empire strategy. If they over-expand, life is generally much easyier for the allies by 43.

What or who is KB?

Kido Butai = Mobile Strike Force aka IJN main CV fleet (basically Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku).

[Jim Stevens]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I remember playing WITP and just having some Betty's and Nell's stationed in strategic parts of the DEI meant doom for Allied merchies. You could rake up a good kill rate over time with enough Betty's and Nell's in the game. Are they still as deadly as before? I mean, literally you couldn't move anything around the DEI when they were within about 8 hexes of Jap bombers armed with torps. Has that changed any?

What is DEI?

Never mind, I figured it out... [:'(]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I remember playing WITP and just having some Betty's and Nell's stationed in strategic parts of the DEI meant doom for Allied merchies. You could rake up a good kill rate over time with enough Betty's and Nell's in the game. Are they still as deadly as before? I mean, literally you couldn't move anything around the DEI when they were within about 8 hexes of Jap bombers armed with torps. Has that changed any?

What is DEI?

Dutch East Indies. The Java, Sumatra, Celebes and Borneo areas of the map where most of the resources for Japanese industry will come from.

[uncivil_servant]

Trying to read and decipher as discussion rnge from current game, which I have just started, and previous game are not options severely limited? All the discussions around what the allies can do when the KB is not around seem to imply that:
Stong CV TF's are a wee bit more indestructible than in real life. (Also read one cannot duplicate the batle of coral sea correctly when that batle had more "odd/quirky" events which saved the IJN side of the battle as both sides misidentified "carrier forces" but only one side had a storm front come in to protect and hide a carier, and that the Lex was easily going to live to fight the next day except it met mr. sub - and b) a really stupid mistake someone made regarding leaving a generator running in an area with air fuel vapors)

It also seems that people speak of defending certain areas excpt when the IJ side advances quickly in those areas - this leads to the above - are land based bombers so castrated that opposing fleets can sail without care near non-torpedo bomber bases? Men who knew more than any of us do kept their prescious ships away from such bases. They didn't sail by singapore into the indian ocean, they didn't stick around pearl for hour much less another day or three, the B-17s and other Midway bombers scared the opposing admiral so (when bomb strikes on carriers were so close that the spray from the bombs closely striking would completely obscure from view the entire carrier) that the land-based bombers were considered more than worthy of a second strike to try and remove their threat as they considered themselve extremely lucky to not have had hits from all the bombs striking water at a closer than comfortable range.

In the game it seems Mr. KB player could just ignore Midway and any bombers as they'd have no chance to begin with and radically change strategies of the war so each war is the same.. run.. hide from KB.. wait and build up...

That and I'm looking for the "editor switch" regarding replacing ships as Bullwinkle and Mac Linehan discuss but I cannot find.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: uncivil_servant

Trying to read and decipher as discussion rnge from current game, which I have just started, and previous game are not options severely limited? All the discussions around what the allies can do when the KB is not around seem to imply that:
Stong CV TF's are a wee bit more indestructible than in real life. (Also read one cannot duplicate the batle of coral sea correctly when that batle had more "odd/quirky" events which saved the IJN side of the battle as both sides misidentified "carrier forces" but only one side had a storm front come in to protect and hide a carier, and that the Lex was easily going to live to fight the next day except it met mr. sub - and b) a really stupid mistake someone made regarding leaving a generator running in an area with air fuel vapors)

It also seems that people speak of defending certain areas excpt when the IJ side advances quickly in those areas - this leads to the above - are land based bombers so castrated that opposing fleets can sail without care near non-torpedo bomber bases? Men who knew more than any of us do kept their prescious ships away from such bases. They didn't sail by singapore into the indian ocean, they didn't stick around pearl for hour much less another day or three, the B-17s and other Midway bombers scared the opposing admiral so (when bomb strikes on carriers were so close that the spray from the bombs closely striking would completely obscure from view the entire carrier) that the land-based bombers were considered more than worthy of a second strike to try and remove their threat as they considered themselve extremely lucky to not have had hits from all the bombs striking water at a closer than comfortable range.

In the game it seems Mr. KB player could just ignore Midway and any bombers as they'd have no chance to begin with and radically change strategies of the war so each war is the same.. run.. hide from KB.. wait and build up...

That and I'm looking for the "editor switch" regarding replacing ships as Bullwinkle and Mac Linehan discuss but I cannot find.

No, it's not like that mate. Even the mighty KB in 1942 is voulnerable. I just had the KB CAP screen (190 zero strong!) penetrated by a single flight of 8 (EIGHT) B25s flying at 100 ft... my crappy japanese radars didn't detect them untill it was too late (8 minutes) and none of my fighters managed to get on them before they could release their bombs... one of my CVs got hit by 3 500lb bombs and took serious damage.

CV battles are subjected to a lot of variables, just like in RL. You can be lucky or unlucky...weather has a HUGE part in those battles... and you cannot control it.

Now that i've played the evil side, i can tell you that the next time i'll play as the allies i'll be much much more aggressive against the enemy's KB. It's a paper tiger...strong, yes, but made of paper.

[crsutton]

I don't like the term Sir Robin as everybody has a different idea as to what it exactly is. Obviously the Allies are going to get "pimp slapped" in early 1942 if they try to man up on the Japanese. Some discretion is advised. There are some basic rules to adhere to, and most are stated in this thread. Basically you have to read your opponent and play on the "edge" of their ability. Be wary and avoid mistakes and take any opening that they give to you. It is a hell of a lot easier for the Japanese player to screw up in the early going that the Allied. However, a "crack" Japanese player is going to push you hard and use a big fist. You had better be thinking about avoiding that fist.

It has pretty much been my mantra from day one. If the Allied player does not f**k up and lose his carriers in 1942 then it is going to be pretty hard for him/her to lose the game. So there you have it, don't lose your carriers.

[Zigurat666]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

ORIGINAL: topeverest

My 2 cents,

KB if intact is too dangerous to fight. I have never permanently held PI or Malaya, though I have had PI in May.

I would classify appropriate allied strategy in the earliest months as one of building hub bases while surface raiding, pulsing air combats, and opportunitist counterinvasions (when you know where the KB isnt!) Subs can bag 30+ cargos per month alone if you place them right. Do that from the beginning. One of the big early decisions is how many assets to consume in the defense of the DEI - and how. IMHO, the war is logisitics at its base. The longer you deny the DEI the better off the allies are in general.

A lot depends on the empire strategy. If they over-expand, life is generally much easyier for the allies by 43.

What or who is KB?

This is the KB from 1941 until mid 1943

[Zigurat666]

and this is the KB from 43 on....

[uncivil_servant]

That is good to know. Stories of KB circling Australia w/ouy a care in the world make me scratch my head as to what strategies I could try that are even possible if naval forces get so restricted and that there are no "safe" seas.

[Nemo121]

A true "Sir Robin" is basically about taking whatever you can move and running away faster than the Japanese can logistically support their advance. Basically, "run faster than the hunter can hunt". Many adopt it fully, some adopt it in part and both groups tend to call it the same thing which adds to confusion immeasurably.

I'll deal with those who basically run without fighting whenever possible.... IMO ( and it is an opinion not gospel ) that's a choice taken by poor players who aren't interested in improving their play. Pulling back until the Japanese logistical culmination point requires almost no skill whatsoever and doesn't promote the development of any skill beyond the estimation of where that logistical culmination point will be. It doesn't promote the use of subterfuge, the art of assessing enemy capabilities and predicting their courses of action, of misleading them, of mounting spoiling attacks of phasing into and out of areas of operation in order to spoil strategic dispositions, of using small, relatively lesser skilled, less mobile forces operating along external lines ( the Allies ) to take the initiative away from larger, more skilled, mobile forces operating along internal lines (the Japanese ) and force those larger, more skilled, more mobile forces along internal lines to react rather than imposing their will etc etc etc.

There are many AARs where reasonably good players have stung the Japanese in the early months of the war. There are AARs ( jrcar's chief amongst them ) in which the Allies have used excellent judgement and strategic nous to stalemate the Japanese far earlier and more conclusively than was achieved. Lastly there are other AARs where the Allies have mounted large strategically important offensives by mid-42 although those games are due to confluences which are probably rather rarer.

The key point is that the Allies can and have stung the Japanese, stopped the Japanese and even turned them back well within the timescale of the Sir Robin. So, those who argue that the Sir Robin is the only or even best option are flying in the face of the objective reality of what has been achieved within AE. Each of the situations within which the Japanese have been stung or halted has featured players who have focused on strategic goals, players who have not been diverted by the ephemera of tactical gains at strategic cost, players who have subordinated the tactical to the strategic at all times, players who have identified points crucial to the Japanese plans and concentrated forces at those points and who have recognised that to maintain a threat does not require the maintaining of a presence.

Of course those skills and those ways of thinking are difficult to develop... they take time.... they take effort .... they require the losing of games in the learning, games which could have been won with the tactics of Sir Robin. The question really is whether or not you want to be a much, much better strategic thinker in 3 years time or whether you want to win this current game. If you want to win the current game then use Sir Robin but don't expect to be a better player next game. If you are willing to lose the current game in order to be better next year ( choosing to subordinate the tactical to the strategic in your own life ) then turn from the Sir Robin and find the best player you can to deliver the most comprehensive victory possible.

Sir Robin works but it lacks ambition and the potential for honing oneself.


As to KB.... The key really is two-fold.
1. To take KB on with one's unsinkable carriers. Or, rather, to have KB choose to tackle your unsinkable carriers as people will perservere longer on a suicidal path if they think they're in control.
2. To realise that the Japanese carriers are meaningless. Only their planes ( and really their elite pilots ) matter. THOSE are your target. I don't care if the Japanese player has 10 CVs with 600 planes if they are all 30 Exp rookies. That's just 120 Allied Aces waiting to be made and 10 CVs waiting to be turned into reefs.