Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

I just got the turn back. I know now WHY things got messed up but not really why...

Tanna was drenched in thunderstorms so that answers that. The reason nothing flew from Noumea is because the frigging amphib TF didn´t unload a single frigging thing! Could someone please, please help my understand why the game decided NOT to unload anything this time around?

All TFs were two hexes from Noumea as seen in the above screenshot

Amphib TF set to full speed, Unload, Follow ASW TF
ASW TF. Set destination Noumea. Full speed. Remain on station.
All other TFs set to follow the ASW TF.

I used EXACTLY the same settings when I did the first landing. Then the opposite happened and the TFs warped 1 hex closer and started unloading. I can´t for the love of anything understand why the amphib TF didn´t unload this time around?! The TF hasn´t even started unloading. Not a single thing. It just says Cargo Status: Idle

Why? [:(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

How many fighters did you have show up on the combat replay as available to go after the bombers?? Often, the numbers you see here, the 142, were involved in combat at one point, but not throughout the whole A2A battle.

What was the altitude of his Kates vs what you had set for your fighters?? Sometimes, if it greater than 10k difference, then they are unlikely to get down fast enough to engage them. I stack my fighters at different altitude to ensure some are down low enough. 12k is good enough to ensure my fighters are low enough to get anything unless I know he likes to come in at 2k, then some are below 10k.

AA issues is one reason I've gone over to games based on DaBigBabes mod. [:)]

Thank you for dropping by! Your advice is as always very welcome! [:)]

I havn´t mustered the energy to look at the replay one more time. Will try and bring myself to do this later. I had a layered cap in place. Atleast I though it did. But since nothing flew from Noumea 28 Fighters that were set to 6k and 28 set to 10k didn´t fly. [:(]
Only the CV fighters took off and they were all set to 14k except one group of 25 set to 4k.

I´m really psyched about starting my DBB game. I think it will adress much of the lala land stuff in vanilla!

[BBfanboy]

Re: the failure to unload, the only thing I can think of is that the TF had to refuel some of the ships and used most of its Ops points, leaving nothing for unload. Aircraft cannot be unloaded over the beach, the ship must be docked and docking only takes place automatically in a level 3 or higher port and if there is an entire phase left when the ship arrives - i.e. if it arrives in the afternoon, it will not dock until next turn, but if it arrives in the morning it will auto-dock.

[JocMeister]

Hi BBfanboy!

All TFs had been refueled at Norfolk island 2 turns prior. No aircraft were unloaded over the beach or supposed to. The airgroups were flown in the turn before. Only supply and the remaining LCU were to unload. The TF was an Amphibious one. As I understand it should unload over the beach without docking just as it did when Noumea was in enemy hands?

[BBfanboy]

OK - I made my comments because I came in on pg 3 of the AAR and hadn't seen the last part of page 2. So I guess the aircraft flew in from the CVEs and therefore were fully operational. Unless there were pilot fatigue/inadequate escort/non-aggressive leadership issues, they should have flown. If the CVE TF was in the port hex as a destination, and not set to "patrol", I think the number of ops it can do is halved [because it is stationary, not moving at launch speed]. Being stationary would also make it a sitting duck for bombers. [:(]

[JocMeister]

Ah, The aircraft flew in from Tanna and were operational besides the lack of Supply. The Amphib TF were to unload supply to the base. As far as I know CVEs don´t suffer any penalties from being in a port hex. Only CVs and CVLs do. Judging by the replay all my CVE fighters were airborne! [:)]

The problem is simply that the amphibious TF didn´t unload any cargo. I´m trying to learn why? It just sat there doing nothing and that led to supply shortages preventing my DBs and fighters on Noumea to fly.

[ny59giants]

Did you have any transports loaded with just supplies in your Amphib TF??

Once you're that close to the base your are invading, I set everybody to go in solo, no "follow TF xx." I've had some TFs arrive at a friendly base and NOT start to unload until the next turn when I manually had to go in and order it. I think I may need to try one more thing. I usually just change "Do Not Unload" in the middle of the screen, I might try clicking on the order to unload near the bottom of the right hand column in addition, just as long as the TF is not in a coastal hex. You might try this too.

M

[JocMeister]

I had 4 AKs loaded with just supply in the same TF as the APs carrying troops and supply. But no ship at all unloaded anything. It just sits in port with "idle".

I will definitely try what you suggest next time! I´m thinking about asking Erik for a redo on this one. I will give it a thought over night. Any thoughts on that? Is it wrong of me to ask?

[ny59giants]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. [;)]

[Dan Nichols]

Jocke, to further answer your question, I too had the same thing happen in a game versus the AI, so I was able to redo the turn to see what happened. An Amphibious TF that is set to follow another TF will not unload. Most likely because it does not have a destination set if it is set to follow. I no longer have any of my TFs that are expecting to unload follow another, the same thing will happen to a cargo or transport TF if following another TF.

[JocMeister]

Dan,

That´s good info! But it does work when the base is enemy? I´m 90% sure I had the exact same settings when I landed on an enemy occupied Noumea! [&:]

[JocMeister]

I decided to ask Erik for a redo. If a TF unloads a first time and then try again using the exact same settings and not changing anything one should be able to assume that it will unload the second time.

I doubt its a "documented feature" that it doesn´t unload on a friendly base if following a TF but it will do if its an enemy base. Had it not been critical ships involved I would have ticked this off as a "learning experience". But I now have lost the most important assets I have and also are in serious risk of loosing Noumea and the forces on Noumea including the 1st marines.

I´ve received a reply from Erik and he understandably isn´t too happy about it but asked to hear my reasoning. We will see what his response to that will be.

Motivation have taken a nosedive in this game lately. The events of the last two turns didn´t help. It sort of feels I´m banging my head into a wall that is my own lack of knowledge. I now stand the risk of loosing my biggest asset right now due to not knowing how the engine handles things.

I also have serious dislike for my ability to maintain 3k worth of AV in Burma. On the other hand its more or less the only thing I can do in the game besides waiting for 43 to pass. But it leaves a sour aftertaste and I´m certainly not enjoying my little "endeavour" in jundgle. I think all forces together in the jungles of Burma would be close to half a million men. All in good supply [8|] Its not the way this game should be played and I´m pretty sure this was not intended by the developers. I will make a decision shortly to withdraw or not. But I will also take into consideration that Erik didn´t mind sending his deathstar around the map in China with 200k troops and 3k tanks over the mountains to Lanchow. So perhaps I really should feel that bad about it?

The completely non existant AA in this game is also mind boggling. I have said it before and will say it again. But I can´t understand how the history/simulation freaks on this forum can spend page after page on the forum discussing the ASW launchers on a particular Oz AM and then be fine with how the AA works. I just can´t understand it.

Part of my lack of motivation at this point it also my own fault. I made so many errors during this game due to it being my first and I can´t stop thinking "If only I had done this and that". I also made some bad calls due to not understanding the engine and sheer inexperience/stupidity.

I have explained this to Erik earlier but he wants to continue anyway so I will regardless of what happens today. Perhaps the motivation will return some day...

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

Jocke, to further answer your question, I too had the same thing happen in a game versus the AI, so I was able to redo the turn to see what happened. An Amphibious TF that is set to follow another TF will not unload. Most likely because it does not have a destination set if it is set to follow. I no longer have any of my TFs that are expecting to unload follow another, the same thing will happen to a cargo or transport TF if following another TF.

Further on this [if you get to redo the turn], it would probably be good to separate the cargo ships from the amphib TF. As I understand it, an amphib TF unloads in the order: troops - light equipment - heavy equipment - supply.
If supply is urgent you need to get the cargo ships unloading at the same time, docked if the port is size 3 plus. If the port is size 2 or smaller, unloading is faster in amphib mode so set the cargo ships in their own amphib TF.

[JocMeister]

Thanks for the advice BB! Will certainly try it the next time!

So, Erik kindly allowed a rerun and unfortunately for me it made almost no difference in the outcome. His strike went through almost unopposed despite around 150 F4Fs on CAP and a 45 minute warning. [8|] All CVEs are on the bottom except one with 99SYS and 78 Fire. That one will sink tomorrow.

BUT, This time the rest of the troops are onshore! No damage to any transports or other combat vessels! So its was not totally in vain.

Consequences:
I can give NO ship borne aircover for about 12-18 months. Erik is a creature of habit and will have the KB parked at Tulagi as he has done throughout the game. So I will have to go somewhere else. He has built a fortress around the Solomons so I´m not even going to bother with that. But I will give an impression of island hopping slowly north to keep him there.

Centpac is out of the question for anything else but a feint to try and draw away the KB from Tulagi.

Hello Burma! I havn´t decided yet how much I will move. But I will probably move 7-10 divisions plus all available armour. I have plenty of time since I won´t be able to do anything until I get the Hellcats online in Burma. I might even wait for the Thuds to start arriving. He has about 3-400 Tojos over Burma and I can´t do much there with the useless P40s. P38 pools are empty.

I hate this move and will find no enjoyment of doing this. But as things look I either do this or press "end turn" for 12-18 months.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Part of my lack of motivation at this point it also my own fault. I made so many errors during this game due to it being my first and I can´t stop thinking "If only I had done this and that". I also made some bad calls due to not understanding the engine and sheer inexperience/stupidity.

I have explained this to Erik earlier but he wants to continue anyway so I will regardless of what happens today. Perhaps the motivation will return some day...

Keep at it Jocke! The lessons you learn here, you can spank me with in our game. [:D]

Seriously, you're in tough, but the best learning experience and the most fun when you pull something off. You'll figure out a way to get the Green Machine rolling. If your best weapon right now is the shovel and logistics, so be it.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thanks for the advice BB! Will certainly try it the next time!

So, Erik kindly allowed a rerun and unfortunately for me it made almost no difference in the outcome. His strike went through almost unopposed despite around 150 F4Fs on CAP and a 45 minute warning. [8|] All CVEs are on the bottom except one with 99SYS and 78 Fire. That one will sink tomorrow.

BUT, This time the rest of the troops are onshore! No damage to any transports or other combat vessels! So its was not totally in vain.

Consequences:
I can give NO ship borne aircover for about 12-18 months. Erik is a creature of habit and will have the KB parked at Tulagi as he has done throughout the game. So I will have to go somewhere else. He has built a fortress around the Solomons so I´m not even going to bother with that. But I will give an impression of island hopping slowly north to keep him there.

Centpac is out of the question for anything else but a feint to try and draw away the KB from Tulagi.

Hello Burma! I havn´t decided yet how much I will move. But I will probably move 7-10 divisions plus all available armour. I have plenty of time since I won´t be able to do anything until I get the Hellcats online in Burma. I might even wait for the Thuds to start arriving. He has about 3-400 Tojos over Burma and I can´t do much there with the useless P40s. P38 pools are empty.

I hate this move and will find no enjoyment of doing this. But as things look I either do this or press "end turn" for 12-18 months.

Thuds?? I thought the F105 didn't arrive until the 1960s - a looooong wait![:)]
I have seen the nicknames T-bolt and Jug to describe the F-47, but if Thud was in use too, I just learned something.

[ny59giants]

I have been playing WITP and AE for over seven years. I have yet to complete a game. [:(] My current game as Japan is in late Oct 43 which is the farthest I've ever been. Some games ended because of me and others due to my other opponent. Right now, I just want to complete a game to achieve that goal and learn what lessons I can along the way. As long as this game remains fun and you are learning from it, keep going.

I will need to learn how to defend as Japan in the next few years while you will need to learn how to conduct an offense as the Allies. Neither set of lessons can be learned unless we play to the end.

[JocMeister]

Yeah,

I will have too look on this more like a learning experience from now on. I have learned some very valuable lesson that I will bring with me into my game vs Joseph! [:D]

I have to stop expecting historical results from this game. Perhaps not so strange after all since it is a game and not the real world. But I think my main flaw this far has been that everything I have done has been based on what "should" happen based on historical data. I will from now on use the experience I have from the game and not historical events as a frame when planning operations.

That reasoning led me to believe Burma is the only option right now. The supply model is so out of whack is no problem maintaining one or two armies in Burma. I already have one in place that will try and mess one of his superstacks up. I will then retire and wait for army nr 2 to arrive from OZ/Sopac in about 2-3 months. I hope to gather about 8k AV before moving.

Going for Burma have a few major benefits.
1. KB can´t really intervene
2. He will probably have to retire a lot the forces moved from China to make sure I don´t reopen that front.
3. I havn´t really done any landwar. Good training.
4. If I can break him in Burma he will be in serious problem.
5. He has the vast bulk of his fighterforce here. If I can break his airforce this is where it will happen. The Tojos dominance will slowly fade away when Hellcats, Thunderbolts and P38s will arrive in numbers.

I sort of feel a move like this is stretching the imagination a bit. I probably woudn´t have done it if Erik hadn´t used his superstack and "panzerarmee" to conquer China. After all we should both be playing on the same playing field. I won´t restrict myself where he hasn´t.

More detailed plan for Burma will be posted in the coming week. Now I have 1 hour drive and a work exam to do... [:(]

[BBfanboy]

You aren't kidding about the end game being different. I just started the Downfall scenario as the Allies against the AI - I am still trying to sort out the first turn because there are so many things to move around. For example, Manila alone has 991 ships in port!

When I was getting frustrated with all the planning/clicking, I ran a trial run with my partial set-up. Japanese ASW by "E" escorts is nasty! There are hoards of Japanese aircraft and when enough of them come at you they get through the CAP. Georges and Franks are very good fighters. Kamikazes are easy to shoot down but once one of them hits a DD, it will be swarmed by many more [:(]. Haven't been able to get my carriers far enough north to engage the enemy yet so don't know how that will go. They are to whittle down the IJA bombers a bit before my initial landings at Wakkanai, three of the Kuriles and Amami Oshima near Okinawa. Could be a tough battle.

[JocMeister]

I actually tried to do a downfall game vs. the AI a few months back. But I couldn´t stand playing the AI but it was fun playing with all the allied toys! [:D]

I revised my plan a bit. I´m going to send only 4 divisions to Burma. Two of them are restricted on the WC. I will send them to CT. Once they get there I will have enough PPs to buy them out. Two divisions are on the move to Perth. Looks like they will have to take a detour to Carnarvon. Erik spotted my troops moving North and seems to be reinforcing. A sub sank a CM carrying troops moving towards Carnarvon. I have 1800 AV moving there. An additional 800 will surely tip the balance if needed.

I´ve stopped trying to do stuff in Burma right now. I´m going to try at Katha and see how it looks. If it doesn´t look promising I will withdraw until I get useful airframes in July. There is just no way I can do anything about 300 Tojos using only the RAF. Trying to do something with the P40Ks will only give him free kills.