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I think this thread now needs to be locked up lads. This will go one forever and only get you two even more wound up with each other. It's not going to come to an end.

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

You call yourself journalist but you don't know what is quoting. I didn't quoted you. I just summed what you are claiming in various posts whole time. As for "cowardly" - it is logical conclusion from your claim. You don't need to write it directly. And again, you are running away from the essence ...

As I'm still here, I'm not running away from anything.

"Quoting" is when a writer claims to record what someone else said, but if it's not what he said, it's not called a "logical conclusion," it's called a "lie," which makes you a liar.

I didn't quoted you. I paraphrased your fictional constructions. It is sad that I, as non-journalist, have to explain a journalist(?) a difference between quoting and paraphrasing. I wonder how you obtained title of DINFOS-trained journalist as it seems you slept during classes?

A quotation or quote is the repetition of one expression as part of another one, particularly when the quoted expression is well-known or explicitly attributed by citation to its original source, and it is indicated by (punctuated with) quotation marks.

Paraphrasing is stating in your own words what the source is describing and is not taken from the resource word for word.

But perhaps you have another word for it: taqiyya?

I don't speak Arabic so tell us if you know. It could be good thing for you to jump into another unrelated discussion.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.

Yet another example of Godwin's Law, and it only took Emir two pages to get there.

I don't know better comparison as it fits perfectly to this case.

And you did it again! Escaped to another unrelated subject. It seems all your recent posts are attempts to divert discussion into totally irrelevant areas. So get back to subject. As you didn't answer to my question for the third time I will repeat my last post and ask you politely to show us any RELEVANT UNBIASED DOCUMENT which would disprove anything from the bellow list:

1). Joe. D.: "As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him" - LIE, International Court overturned all convictions against Oric.

2) Joe D. went to repeat claim about 2.000 killed civilians by Oric. LIE and well documented Serb propaganda fantasy made to justify their responsibility for genocide.

3) Joe. D.: "The Dutch peacekeepers were so few in number that they more of a trip-wire than a deterrent to aggression". - LIE

4) Joe. D.: "The few hundred Dutch peacekeepers left behind in Sreb were abandoned by both the UN and the Bosnian soldiers" - I don't know even how to call this. LIE - It was other way around.

5) Joe. D.: "The Bosnian troops who decided it was wiser to leave town not only abandoned the outnumbered Dutch peacekeepers, but the unarmed Bosnian civilians in Sreb who were then left to the mercy of Serbs", - LIE

Bosnian troops didn't decide to leave and go to vacation. They were defeated and defense collapsed, because:

a) Only third of them were armed (primarily because of UN imposed arms embargo).
b) Few hundred armed men had to defend nearly 50 kilometers of frontline.
c) Without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping Serbs armor.
d) After the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition.
e) They were misinformed by Dutch commander about NATO airstrikes.
f) Dutch peacekeepers didn't responded to Serb assault on enclave and their own outposts. So defenders were left on their own.
g) After collapse of defense line some of defenders, accompanied with a large number of civilians, tried to reach friendly territory and set out for a 100 km march of death through minefields and Serbs territory. Only 1 out of 5 survived.

These are all well known and documented facts which Joe D. seems to ignore. Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.

Please lads..your not going to say the other is right. Sometimes it's best just to walk away.

I've asked Matrix to lock the thread otherwise you'll just end up getting really pi##ed off the both of you.

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think this thread now needs to be locked up lads. This will go one forever and only get you two even more wound up with each other. It's not going to come to an end.

Wodin, I'm asking Joe D. to provide any relevant document or evidence for his claim(s). Obviously he is not able to that and is continuing to divert thread into irrelevant subjects or to deliberately depreciate thread by pulling half a sentences out of context and misinterpreting other authors CLEAR conclusions.

On the other hand I quoted documents, not a single one from Bosnia official, but those written by western historians, US military analysts and verdicts of International Court in Hague. All of which he apparently ignore.

Emir, no problem. I'm not directing this at any of you. At all. The subject is way to emotive for me to pass comment, and I doubt anyone else will either. So it's probably best it gets locked. Sometimes we think, I WON'T REPLY..however we read a reply and then have to reply back, it becomes a never ending cycle. I've been there myself and ended up in abit of a flame war.It can happen to the best of us and the most laid back. Especially if your comments are being or have been misunderstood or an issue is close to the heart then you can't help yourself replying even when you know it probably cause more harm than good and it will never stop. Some threads I post and then I never go back to check a response, as I know it may bring about some disagreement. So to stay out of one I don't check the replies.

ORIGINAL: wodin

Emir, no problem. I'm not directing this at any of you. At all. The subject is way to emotive for me to pass comment, and I doubt anyone else will either. So it's probably best it gets locked. Sometimes we think, I WON'T REPLY..however we read a reply and then have to reply back, it becomes a never ending cycle. I've been there myself and ended up in abit of a flame war.It can happen to the best of us and the most laid back. Especially if your comments are being or have been misunderstood or an issue is close to the heart then you can't help yourself replying even when you know it probably cause more harm than good and it will never stop. Some threads I post and then I never go back to check a response, as I know it may bring about some disagreement. So to stay out of one I don't check the replies.

You are right, I agree that is best to lock up this thread. I think I have said everything at beginning but just can't pass some stuff without replaying. So it is better to be locked up.

Anyway, if anyone is interested on subject of recent Balkan wars I have before mentioned two volume study: "Balkan Battlegrounds: A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Washington 2002. It is best independent and most comprehensive military analysis of Yugoslav wars in my knowing. Also, it is primarily focused on military aspects and written in a form of AAR. Unfortunately, study is not available for ordering via Amazon anymore. So, if you need to read about some specific military operation from this conflict please send me a PM. I will be glad to help by scanning and sending excerpt about subject (if it is not too long).

Oh and welcome to the FB page;)

ORIGINAL: wodin



I've asked Matrix to lock the thread otherwise you'll just end up getting really pi##ed off the both of you.

What are you, the forum police? Why don't you just ignore the thread? No, you have to tell mom and dad just because you don't like it. No one is forcing you to read it.

ORIGINAL: wodin

The subject is way to emotive for me to pass comment,

But you will appoint yourself judge, and call for a lockdown.

VonRocko. Erm...hello to you to. No I'm no forum police. I've stepped in to moderate, sometimes people can't moderate themsleves as I explained in my post above you so kindly quoted parts of and the locking of a thread may help both parties. I don't see Emir complaining either. Oh and no I don't have the power to lock the thread, only Matrix do. I thought after reading this the only way it would stop is if Matrix become aware of it.

One last thing, your totally wrong. Which is rather funny. I actually find the thread very informative. It certainly doesn't bother me personally. However I can see two forum members getting wound up. So I thought it best to step in. You see when I see two mates having an argument that seems to be getting out of hand I try and step in to sort it out. For their sake not mine. I'm actually not that selfish.

Anyway is I say again I enjoyed the info in this thread. I just think it needs to be locked up so they can cool off. Otherwise this will go on and on, and I don't like seeing people getting really pi##ed off with each other.

Last time I checked as well Matrix was neither my Mum nor Dad. Though I do have a vested interest in the forum and want it to be a good friendly and happy community. I will say this one more time however just in case you haven't got my point or why I asked for it to be locked. It's not because it's upset me or offended me at all, I found the topic very informative and interesting, it was solely because I felt it's time someone steeped in to cool it off. Even Emir agrees.

I could have said nothing and not mentioned I'd reported the thread for lock down if I thought my reasons selfish etc. However I mentioned it as 1. I'm being upfront and 2. I did it with best intentions for both the lads involved. I neither feel like a grass nor a telltale. I feel like a responsible community member who really doesn't like seeing two members get pulled into a flame war. Which if you READ my posts properly you'll see where I'm coming from and the reasons I did it. Things can spiral out of control and sometimes it does take a lock on a thread to sort the issue. Anyway I really don't have to justify anything to you.

Anyway thanks for your opinion, have a good day.

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: wodin

The subject is way to emotive for me to pass comment,

But you will appoint yourself judge, and call for a lockdown.

Yes.

ORIGINAL: wodin

. I've stepped in to moderate, sometimes people can't moderate themsleves as I explained in my post above you so kindly quoted parts of and the locking of a thread may help both parties.

I just think it needs to be locked up so they can cool off.

Hello Wodin, I just want to know, who asked you to step in? Just because YOU feel it should be locked, doesn't mean others feel that way.So why complain to Matrix? I certainly didn't ask you to censor what I read. Take out their personal insults, and it was an informative thread.

It was an Informative read. I just think my desire for knowledge doesn't outwiegh my desire for people to get along on here. Also if there is nothing here to cause alarm Matrix will let it continue..wont they? I personally thought it was getting out of hand and I don't want to see it with either one or both banned. So it needed Matrix to check if it should be nipped in the bud. If there is nothing to be bothered about as I said Matrix will let the thread continue. My voice isn't so powerful I can demand a thread to be locked because it bothers me and me only. Fortunately or Unfortunately I'm not that powerful. So lets see if Matrix let it ride. I'm sure Emir or Joe will be able to give you more info through emails or some such if Matrix decide to lock it up. Emir had already offered.

Now I remember why I barely post on forums anymore. Just to much trouble allround I think. You try to help but it gets twisted or taken the wrong way etc etc. Non visual communication between people who really don't know each other and what makes them tick is a minefield. One thats become tiring. I'm really too ill these days to deal with it. I shall now go back to the sidelines.

Anyway no hard feeling Von Rocko lifes to short. I just know your opinion of my motivation is all wrong.

The point is, they are big boys, and if they didn't complain, then why should you? If you want to settle them down, then write to them, why do you feel the need to inform Matrix? I'm sure they would see it in their own time.

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

The point is, they are big boys ...

Well, the way Emir pouts, I doubt he's very mature, and judging from even a photo-shopped avatar, he doesn't look like he's out of his 20s.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Bosnian troops didn't decide to leave and go to vacation. They were defeated and defense collapsed, because ...

Many of your points are valid, some are even relevant, but they sound more like excuses.

However, you have avoided the most obvious reason for the collapse: that the acting commander was not up to the task, and that both he and his men were demoralized after Bosnian Commander Nasar Oric and his staff were evacuted on orders from Sarejevo.

Apparently Oric's superiors at the capital were afraid that he would fall into the hands of the advancing Serbs, who would publicly try Oric for war crimes against Serb civilians in Sreb; this would prove a great embarassment to Bosnia.

So after the Bosnian command was suddenly decapitated by the loss of its commander and staff, it's not surprising that the troops left in Sreb were disorganized and ineffective.

Hi everyone,

Politics and personal attacks are against the forum rules. This thread crosses into both, perhaps not as far as some past threads, but it definitely gets there.

I'm locking this up - please keep it civil.

Regards,

- Erik