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RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:40 am
by EisenHammer
I got my books in and they are awesome. I am very happy with this...[:)] thanks Matrix and ADG.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:30 am
by DSWargamer
ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
The argument that those willingly wanting to use a tablet instead of a real book, is just the defense of the cheap trying to justify being cheap.
[8|][8|][8|]
[>:][>:]
Guess she doesn't know that tablets or e-readers cost more than hard cover books..........
Actually, the cost of the tablet, is a fixed price, and in about a years time, plunges from 100% of the original sum to often less than half the original sum.
Meanwhile, the value of my library added as a whole, is worth a great deal more than all the electronics contained in my home as a whole.
Your observation is thus flawed.
Granted, if a person were to buy a tablet just to read a single book, that would indeed be an excessively expensive digital file.
And of course, not all efiles are of equal value. Nor are all books of equal cash worth.
As we speak, my current Nexus 7 has been left in the dust by the current model. My current one works just fine, but, like computers, can be relied upon to become increasingly less viable. Meanwhile, my hard cover books, if treated properly, can be expected to be 100% readable long after I am dead.
Often lasting worth outweighs transitory value.
The only time something electronic is expensive, is during the launch window.
My friend recently came to realize he had more pressing bills, and sold his PS4 as he knew the thing would sit on a shelf more than not while waiting on some titles. He actually made an additional 150 bucks above the current sale price though. All because some are incapable of waiting for the latest toy.
I probably would not own my 10 inch Asus Transformer tablet, if not for my being weak and falling for the allure of reading so many model reference books on it and role game manuals on it and in colour. In truth, I have found they have limited functional value in replacing paper, when there is no real reason to NOT use paper.
I can only read one book at a time after all. And unless I need 100 books present, worrying about the weight is a hollow victory.
Thus, your defense crashed and burned 76
Better luck next time
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:01 pm
by Dabrion
yay pissing contest
p.s.: get the eASLrbV2 (the html thingy) for your tablet
way better that the 2lbs ring binder!
Incredible Books!
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:20 pm
by Omnius
I finally received my order and the hard cover manuals are most impressive. Looking at the pictures of convoy routing I noticed I made a mistake in setting up my CW convoys, put too many in the Bay of Biscay and not enough in the Faroes Gap. Good thing I have two spares in Britain so I can begin to move them to the Faroes Gap while moving some out of the Bay of Biscay every turn until all resources from the Americas are routed through the Faroes Gap. Now to find time to read those awesome manuals.
Omnius
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:58 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Thus, your defense crashed and burned 76
Better luck next time
I hate to disappoint you, but you weren't responding to my post, but Aurelian's. To me the relative cost of paper books vs tablets is pretty much irrelevant.
So [>:][>:][>:]
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:21 pm
by Aurelian
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Thus, your defense crashed and burned 76
Better luck next time
I hate to disappoint you, but you weren't responding to my post, but Aurelian's. To me the relative cost of paper books vs tablets is pretty much irrelevant.
So [>:][>:][>:]
Good one
. I pointed it out because of her elitist snob comment of "The argument that those willingly wanting to use a tablet instead of a real book, is just the defense of the cheap trying to justify being cheap"
Cheap people wouldn't buy one. They'd rather someone *give* them one
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:54 pm
by 76mm
I understand that certain people prefer hard copy books. I understand that certain people prefer reading pdfs on tablets. No problem...
What I don't understand is when certain people say that others are "wrong" because reading on one or the other is objectively "better" and attack others (as being "cheap", etc.) for holding another opinion.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:11 pm
by Aurelian
ORIGINAL: 76mm
I understand that certain people prefer hard copy books. I understand that certain people prefer reading pdfs on tablets. No problem...
What I don't understand is when certain people say that others are "wrong" because reading on one or the other is objectively "better" and attack others (as being "cheap", etc.) for holding another opinion.
I suppose they think that because they like the books, *everyone* is supposed to follow them.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:15 pm
by Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: 76mm
I understand that certain people prefer hard copy books. I understand that certain people prefer reading pdfs on tablets. No problem...
What I don't understand is when certain people say that others are "wrong" because reading on one or the other is objectively "better" and attack others (as being "cheap", etc.) for holding another opinion.
I suppose they think that because they like the books, *everyone* is supposed to follow them.
Indeed, Burn the Books and the Heretics!
Oops wrong forum...
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:32 pm
by DSWargamer
ORIGINAL: 76mm
I understand that certain people prefer hard copy books. I understand that certain people prefer reading pdfs on tablets. No problem...
What I don't understand is when certain people say that others are "wrong" because reading on one or the other is objectively "better" and attack others (as being "cheap", etc.) for holding another opinion.
Hehe I never said you were wrong, or anyone was 'wrong' I merely indicated the argument failed.
Your feelings of inadequacy qualified it as 'wrong'.
"Better' is not the opposite of wrong. I believe the opposite of better is WORSE.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:39 pm
by brian brian
Playing this game on a computer at all is worse than the tactile 3D gaming experience, and just being cheap.
Just drop it already.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:31 am
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
The tablet is a great idea to read a book at the donut shop, or read a book on the subway to work. They can play video, and they make nice web browsers, and they are ok to read novels from. They are a lame substitute for a manual though.
I think the largest problem besetting computer World in Flames, is the perception it is more computer program, than set of books.
I think there will be a lot of people finding out, that relying on pdf files is just not going to cut it as well.
They are ok for the light reading aspect if you want to get in some study on the toilet, or a lunch break, or at the cottage. But for playing the game, I have no expectations of using anything digital for reference.
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Playing the game, and resorting to just pdf files.... that's like scrubbing my floors with a finger nail brush. Yeah it can be done, I wouldn't volunteer to do it though
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
It's time the people not wanting the books realized, the computer game is a space convenience, the books are not a pointless extra. It's unfortunate some people live in annoying regions of the planet. It's up to the people living there, to fix that I suppose.
The books are so many time better than a pdf file.
Oops, sorry, I guess you're saying that I misinterpreted your posts quoted above (and many others like them) as meaning that anyone who didn't want the books was "wrong"?
ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
I don't think anyone that has not heard of WiF would have the slightest interest in virtually any of this game actually. It's not an entry level wargame. I think the audience are all hard core fans of the board game.
And I'm not sure where you got this notion. I had never heard of WiF and yet am interested in the computer version, many other posters have stated that they haven't played WiF in twenty years, etc., and yet have bought the game.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:54 am
by Gizuria
ORIGINAL: brian brian
Playing this game on a computer at all is worse than the tactile 3D gaming experience, and just being cheap.
Just drop it already.
It's really funny somebody coming onto Matrix's boards and calling their customers cheap. I've got WiF, WitE, Command Ops with all the expansions, Flashpoint Germany and Company of Heroes as well as a few others. These are definitely NOT cheap wargames. Just because I don't want to pay an additional $50+ for hard-bound books I neither want
nor need doesn't make me cheap. It makes me sensible.
I think the largest problem besetting computer World in Flames, is the perception it is more computer program, than set of books.
I think there will be a lot of people finding out, that relying on pdf files is just not going to cut it as well.
Utterly hilarious. The coder has done a great job of coding the game so that the three PDF manuals are easily accessible to the player while playing the game. For ME, though definitely not DSWargamer, this is far better than a hard-bound book. I can open the relevent player manual and find out about any rule as I play the game just as easily as I could with a physical book. Besides, physical books used like this tend to get worn out rather rapidly. My PDFs don't get tatty or their spines broken.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:08 am
by Aurelian
never mind. for now.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:07 am
by Blue Army
I got my books a week ago, and they are great - and a good match for a likevise great game. Suddenly the 10+ years of waiting feels like a walk in park[:)]
Thanks Steve and Matrix for a great game[&o] More than 800 Danish kroner for a computergame is normally not cheap, but hey, I will never need another game now!
Cheers
Michael
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:10 am
by LiquidSky
Its like somebody ordered a cup of coffee, and it came in a fancy mug with a WIF picture on the side..only 100 bucks. Then arguing that it is the best coffee they ever drank..when it is the same as the free coffee in the office.
We want to drink the same coffee. Only we want to do it for free.
The books add no value. Its great that they offer it for the 'judge the book by the cover' crowd, but for the smart shopper, we are happy to just print from the PDF's the information we want. Or use another means of accessing the information.
What is really sad, is I am not even sure if the rah-rah the books are great crowd have even read them.
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:08 am
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Its like somebody ordered a cup of coffee, and it came in a fancy mug with a WIF picture on the side..only 100 bucks. Then arguing that it is the best coffee they ever drank..when it is the same as the free coffee in the office.
We want to drink the same coffee. Only we want to do it for free.
The books add no value. Its great that they offer it for the 'judge the book by the cover' crowd, but for the smart shopper, we are happy to just print from the PDF's the information we want. Or use another means of accessing the information.
What is really sad, is I am not even sure if the rah-rah the books are great crowd have even read them.
warspite1
The opinions of worthless people are worthless.
Good grief... given that you are someone who stated that rules booklets shouldn't actually teach newcomers to the game how to play, I think your opinions are pretty worthless.
1. You don't like the books. Right, and you are entitled to that opinion. We get it. YOU don't like the books. Not sure why you have to keep telling us but okay, you don't like the books. Can you move on now?
2.
Its like somebody ordered a cup of coffee, and it came in a fancy mug with a WIF picture on the side..only 100 bucks. Then arguing that it is the best coffee they ever drank..when it is the same as the free coffee in the office.
We want to drink the same coffee. Only we want to do it for free.
Great analogy. Wow.... Great that you feel in a position to tell everyone how they should feel about everything - thanks for that.
3.
The books add no value.
Your opinion - don't state that as fact. The books add value to people they add value to - why is that difficult to comprehend?
4.
but for the smart shopper
Since when did you become a "smart shopper"? You admitted previously that you have more money than sense when you bought the game. You also, as mentioned above, previously stated on a separate post that manuals shouldn't teach "clueless newbies" how to play the game. Not sure what you think a rules manual (whether pdf or hard copy or soft copy should do but..) Smart? Er no evidence so far...
5.
What is really sad, is I am not even sure if the rah-rah the books are great crowd have even read them.
Yep, how's that for a self opinionated load of ..... On what basis do you make that observation?
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:42 am
by Aurelian
I just looked at the shipping. $9 is not bad at all.
Now I just have to do some thinking here. This game? Or an UltraDot sight for the .44 Magnum?
Decisions decisions.....
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:32 am
by LiquidSky
Warspite..warspite, warspite..
You didn't read this thread, did you. Just jumped right in and started blasting.
Start with the title: BOOKS ARRIVED, LET MAY SAY THEY ARE INCREDIBLE....
First Line: Just got my parcel in the mail...
Then the OP went on to tell us what a great and wonderful thing these books are. Perhaps he was a speed reader. But I somehow doubt it.
SO I give warning to those who have yet to buy the game. IF you are new, the books will be useful until you are no longer new. If you own WIF, or played WIF, the books will be of limited use. Certainly not worth the 50$ in shipping, plus whatever the value of the books are. Of course, if you are an American, the shipping price is much less....as above.
The shipping invoice claims that the game disc is 6.67, and the books are the rest out of 40$. I would like to say that out of the 112$ they actually charge, half of it is for the books. But it is probably more.
Which means for THE REST OF THE WORLD, we paid 50$ shipping and perhaps more in tax.
GAME: 50$. BOOKS 100$.
SO for that far out of whack is going to cause people to take a closer look at what they are getting for their money.
The game, no problem...despite all kinds of learning curves and actual bugs, the game is okay. Worth the 50 bucks.
The PDF manual....of some limited use, but I can print the pages that are useful to me. I have the boardgame (actually have version 1, 3, 5, and FE), so I have the charts, and can use them. I am willing to bet that most of the people who bought this computer version have played one of these versions. Maybe half to a third own one of them.
The RAW is on line and free. The RAC is just the RAW all fancied up with a few deviations. Thanks for making me buy an expensive version of something I already have printed out. 1/3rd of the books. 33 bucks, thereabouts.
The other two are mostly pictures of what you see on the screen....and a lot of commentary about what/how you should be moving your pieces, in case you don't want to figure that out on your own. Great stuff for newbies who never played WIF before. Better gouge them with some expensive hard covers. After a few months, they wont be reading these books.
Now...Warspite. Yes..I am talking to you. I am willing to bet you had something to do with the making of these. And are taking it personal.
Well..just to be clear. What I really don't like is:
1) Having the material forced on me for 50$ when I could have printed them for 10$, or just left them on a tablet for free.
2) Paying FEDEX 50 bucks to ship something that I downloaded for free. A disc I can't even use, since I gave up owning a DVD-drive in my computer a couple years ago as obsolete. And three Hardcover books, that could have easily been softcover, or better yet, not included.
3) Not offering a choice so that the 'Judge the book by it's cover' crowd can have there eye-candy, while the more knowledgeable crowd could make do with the PDF's.
I am hoping that Matrix comes to their senses...and I strongly believe they will, rendering all this moot...and offer a download only version. When they do, I want to buy my poorer wargaming buddies a copy of the game each so we can all play.
Oh yeah. The game isn't actually finished yet. Well..I have time wait then.
SO warspite. Please tell me why you think the manuals are better in a HARDCOVER version. And worth the extra 100 dollars for non-americans...60 bucks if your American. Why they are better then just printing the PDF and putting it into a 3 ring binder.
After they do....I wonder how strongly you will all feel about your 'hardcover' manuals
RE: Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:51 am
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Warspite..warspite, warspite..
You didn't read this thread, did you. Just jumped right in and started blasting.
Start with the title: BOOKS ARRIVED, LET MAY SAY THEY ARE INCREDIBLE....
First Line: Just got my parcel in the mail...
Then the OP went on to tell us what a great and wonderful thing these books are. Perhaps he was a speed reader. But I somehow doubt it.
SO I give warning to those who have yet to buy the game. IF you are new, the books will be useful until you are no longer new. If you own WIF, or played WIF, the books will be of limited use. Certainly not worth the 50$ in shipping, plus whatever the value of the books are. Of course, if you are an American, the shipping price is much less....as above.
The shipping invoice claims that the game disc is 6.67, and the books are the rest out of 40$. I would like to say that out of the 112$ they actually charge, half of it is for the books. But it is probably more.
Which means for THE REST OF THE WORLD, we paid 50$ shipping and perhaps more in tax.
GAME: 50$. BOOKS 100$.
SO for that far out of whack is going to cause people to take a closer look at what they are getting for their money.
The game, no problem...despite all kinds of learning curves and actual bugs, the game is okay. Worth the 50 bucks.
The PDF manual....of some limited use, but I can print the pages that are useful to me. I have the boardgame (actually have version 1, 3, 5, and FE), so I have the charts, and can use them. I am willing to bet that most of the people who bought this computer version have played one of these versions. Maybe half to a third own one of them.
The RAW is on line and free. The RAC is just the RAW all fancied up with a few deviations. Thanks for making me buy an expensive version of something I already have printed out. 1/3rd of the books. 33 bucks, thereabouts.
The other two are mostly pictures of what you see on the screen....and a lot of commentary about what/how you should be moving your pieces, in case you don't want to figure that out on your own. Great stuff for newbies who never played WIF before. Better gouge them with some expensive hard covers. After a few months, they wont be reading these books.
Now...Warspite. Yes..I am talking to you. I am willing to bet you had something to do with the making of these. And are taking it personal.
Well..just to be clear. What I really don't like is:
1) Having the material forced on me for 50$ when I could have printed them for 10$, or just left them on a tablet for free.
2) Paying FEDEX 50 bucks to ship something that I downloaded for free. A disc I can't even use, since I gave up owning a DVD-drive in my computer a couple years ago as obsolete. And three Hardcover books, that could have easily been softcover, or better yet, not included.
3) Not offering a choice so that the 'Judge the book by it's cover' crowd can have there eye-candy, while the more knowledgeable crowd could make do with the PDF's.
I am hoping that Matrix comes to their senses...and I strongly believe they will, rendering all this moot...and offer a download only version. When they do, I want to buy my poorer wargaming buddies a copy of the game each so we can all play.
Oh yeah. The game isn't actually finished yet. Well..I have time wait then.
SO warspite. Please tell me why you think the manuals are better in a HARDCOVER version. And worth the extra 100 dollars for non-americans...60 bucks if your American. Why they are better then just printing the PDF and putting it into a 3 ring binder.
After they do....I wonder how strongly you will all feel about your 'hardcover' manuals
warspite1
LiquidSky, LiquidSky, LiquidSky
Why oh why can you not read????? Why do you keep spouting "fact" and opinions that are totally and utterly WRONG?
In no particular order:
1.
SO warspite. Please tell me why you think the manuals are better in a HARDCOVER version. And worth the extra 100 dollars for non-americans...60 bucks if your American. Why they are better then just printing the PDF and putting it into a 3 ring binder.
For the love of god, I DON'T - I NEVER SAID I DO!!! I personally like the manuals, they are excellent - that's my personal opinion. Please show me where I have EVER said that they are better in hardcover and those wanting PDF's are wrong.
2.
Now...Warspite. Yes..I am talking to you. I am willing to bet you had something to do with the making of these. And are taking it personal.
I can honestly tell you, hand on heart, that I had precisely NOTHING to do with the manuals - nichts, nada, nothing. DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND THAT? Because they are a classy product I wish I could say I did, but I didn't.
3.
You didn't read this thread, did you. Just jumped right in and started blasting.
Well done - a full house!! Wrong on every count. YES of course I had the good grace to read peoples posts before commenting upon what they say - its a shame other people don't show the same courtesy.
4. By the way, why have you removed your priceless comment about manuals only being for "clueless newbiees"? Embarrassed by that one I guess.
5.
After they do....I wonder how strongly you will all feel about your 'hardcover' manuals
I already answered that in a previous post (but of course you jumped right in without reading [8|])
IF Matrix change their mind, then fine - I don't care. I am happy with the manuals and I would have paid the $57 shipping to get the game on day 1 even had I known a pdf only version was subsequently to be made available. But that is my personal choice - I wanted the books and the maps and I wanted the game day 1. If people get the game with no shipping costs good luck to them.
EDIT: Missed point 5 off