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RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:15 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
Displayed CV of these three units was 4 at the beginning of my turn (see screenshot). So that is half of what you calculated. Then take into account failed leader checks and air bombardment. Also, displayed CV is based on fortification level of 1 but my sappers reduced the fort to 0. I will show the combat in my AAR.
May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.
But in fact it doesn't matter, you killed them efficiently [:(]
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:21 pm
by Oshawott
May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.
Nope, second number is defensive CV.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:21 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: smokindave34
Loss of 3 panzers divisions this early in the war really hurts. It's going to take a while to get their morale back up to a respectable value.
aye, that has to hurt, any offensive that Stef78 was planning must have been on a shoestring with almost no margin in any case, and he's now lost the equivalent of a Pzr Corp for most of this year?
Losing 3 Pzd (2 in fact due tu 10th withdrawal in may 1942) and a mot early in may 1942 is clearly not a good news.
For the second time in this game I got the same lesson:
adapt your gameplay to your opponent!
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:31 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
May be I'm wrong but 4 on your screenshot refers to MP, not CV. We are in a mud turn.
Nope, second number is defensive CV.
Sorry of being insistant, I'm not native english
I took the original WITE manual page 58
Unit Graphic: Displays CV-MP mode with currently selected soft factor and movement status.
Where is my misundertanding? [&:]
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:38 pm
by STEF78
I also took the french translation
Pion : celui-ci affiche les valeurs de combat-capacité de déplacement ainsi que les indicateurs et le statut de déplacement actuels.
That's the same.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:40 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: jwolf
I can't help but fear that Stef has run into 1943 a year early. This looks very bad for the Axis side.
The "Final Victory" is still achievable! [:D]
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:42 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
Loss of 3 panzers divisions this early in the war really hurts. It's going to take a while to get their morale back up to a respectable value.
Question for Axis specialists. 10th Panzer is scheduled for withdrawal. Does it come back as an empty shell and is then withdrawn or does it simply disappear?
It will come back at full strength but units on withdrawal status are always on refit mode so they also leave close from their full strength
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:42 pm
by STEF78
double post
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 pm
by morvael
Cut off units may have their CV divided by 10 in combat, also they suffer from supply shortages affecting CV, which normally is not affecting units (as they are assumed to be drawing new supplies from base). Basically, isolated units have some chance in port and big city, otherwise they are doomed on the next turn.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:50 pm
by morvael
Also, when you see X-Y on counter, then Y is MP. When you see X=Z on counter, then Z is defensive CV. Enemy units are always shown as X=Z, whereas one can select display mode for own units using the z key. I always use the CV=CV mode.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:22 pm
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: morvael
Also, when you see X-Y on counter, then Y is MP. When you see X=Z on counter, then Z is defensive CV. Enemy units are always shown as X=Z, whereas one can select display mode for own units using the z key. I always use the CV=CV mode.
Thanks a lot![:)]
After more than 2 years of play, I finally can read a counter!
Time to go back to school, but german was my first foreign language then English but there was no "wargame lesson". Only a lot of useless words such as fork, plate, knife...
Surprising, as English aren't renown for their cooking ability [;)]
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:44 pm
by Flaviusx
I'm afraid you timed this rather badly and let the Sov get the drop on you in the mud turns knowing that he could be super aggressive against a very weak encirclement. You should've imo instead have struck in such a way that it dislocated his line and set you up for a coup de grace when the weather flipped back to clear. I don't like the place you chose to strike, either, I would've tried to head SE towards the Sea of Azov rather than due east, again, not creating an encirclement prematurely, but totally throwing him off his stride and making his entire southern position untenable. He would have a difficult time backing out of that during mud if you did it right and aimed at the correct rail junctions.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:06 pm
by STEF78
You're right.
Looking at the poor result of this first encirclement I can do nothing but admit my mistake.
I thought about several plans for this may/june period. One of them was a pincer from South Kherson, north Zaporoje but the defences east of Kherson were too strong.
Right now I'm in bad shape but it doesn't only comme from this "weak" encirclement. It also comes from the low level of losses inflicted to the russians during summer 1941.
I begun the game the way I finished against Frogmarc but Oshawott is obviously a far better russian player...
I'm convinced that his 1942's style of defence will become the new soviet standard. End of the ants carpet.
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:46 pm
by STEF78
Turn 51, 4th june 1942
2nd consecutive mud turn. Cleaning of the tiny Pocket begins. Most russian units will escape.
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:46 pm
by STEF78
Turn 52, 11th june 1942
This time the Pocket is sealed. Nothing to be proud about...
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:13 am
by STEF78
Turn 54, 25th june 1942
A view of the center part of the front and of the soviet lines. It looks like a hive of bee, you can break a wall, it does not put in danger the global structure of the fortification.
Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:37 am
by STEF78
My early offensive in may failed due to the alternance of mud/clear turn, the excellent organisation of soviet defence and counterattacks and some operational mistakes in my first encirclement.
As stated by Flaviusx:
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The timing was off because you didn't coordinate things with mud in mind. For example, that encirclement you executed. The very next turn following would be mud. The Soviet was therefore in a perfect position to throw the kitchen sink at it, break it up, and isolate some of your own units leaving you with no means to respond. You shouldn't have tried to do this encirclement in the first place given the weather sequence.
You also, as I have stated elsewhere, did it in the wrong place. The operation you mounted had only limited local significance even if it had worked. Your true strategic goal should have been to dislocate the very long Soviet line by striking south east towards the Sea of Azov and capturing or wrecking the rail junctions in the area, thus stranding the whole southern concentration. No encirclement was immediately necessary to do this. It would be a straightforward penetration timed to coincide with mud and leave several Soviet fronts stranded from the Dnepr bend south, with no means to flee east and trapped against the south. These could be corralled against the Crimea in due course. The eastern ukraine would then be opened up for further operations once the weather cleared up. You could even turn his flank and start munching away in a north easterly direction -- this would be the right time to conduct encirclements of a war winning nature.
So I object to what you did on larger strategic grounds. The opportunity to do this has now passed. You are decisively engaged in a battle of attrition with the Red Army that has to favor the Soviet.
But I don't think that it would have been different while attacking from Dniepropetrovsk to Azov.
The key isn't the gain of some kilometers but the destruction of the soviet army. Attacking to the South without being able to create a Pocket is useless.
My problem is the size of the soviet army not the capture of Azov.
An it doesn't appear on my map but Oshawott had already back lines of defence prepared in the South.
So I maintain my opinion, my target was right but my operational execution wrong
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:53 am
by loki100
really admire you for sticking with this game, those numbers are scary.
It takes no genius to offer the view that you have problems now, and in a game which tends to 'rich get richer' dynamics.
Laying aside whether you picked the right target/place/time for your last operation, I guess the real question is whether you can really dent the Red Army now by conducting a series of army sized encirclements (thinking of the way you dismantled Frogmarc) or if your only chance is to go for a single strategic encirclement and hope that does enough damage (accepting it is a very high risk choice).
promises to be a fascinating read in any case [;)]
about fixed/random weather. I think this phase of 1942 is where non-random weather really favours the Soviets over the Germans and one reason why random opens up the uncertainty. As FlaviusX said in the other thread, Oshawatt was able to operate with certainty, he should have been faced with a dilemna of escalating his losses by counterattacking so hard.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:21 am
by Flaviusx
STEF, the idea here is to set yourself up for encirclement operations later. First, the integrity of the Soviet Front needs to be broken up; there's a good two fronts (maybe 3) from the Dnepr bend south that could be put in a position where they cannot directly support the rest of the front and can only be redeployed slowly once the rail lines are cut and the German army is marching east of them towards Stalino. And mud would hinder them on top of that.
Once the weather clears up you smash your way east and force the Red Army to deploy his reserves to cover the Ukraine rather than smashing directly into your face in the center in what looks to me like nothing so much as Kursk a year in advance.
This movement opens things up and creates future opportunities where you hold the initiative. But the best chance to do this has come and past and now things will very likely bog down.
RE: Back in the East STEF78 (Axis) Oshawott (USSR)
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:07 am
by STEF78
ORIGINAL: loki100
really admire you for sticking with this game, those numbers are scary.
They are!!!! But in fact I prefer a hard game like this one than a cake walk like the game against frogmarc. You learn more from strong opponents
It takes no genius to offer the view that you have problems now, and in a game which tends to 'rich get richer' dynamics.
Agreed. I had problems during 1941, heavy problems during blizzard, huge problems right now! I'm behind the curve but still living.
Laying aside whether you picked the right target/place/time for your last operation, I guess the real question is whether you can really dent the Red Army now by conducting a series of army sized encirclements (thinking of the way you dismantled Frogmarc) or if your only chance is to go for a single strategic encirclement and hope that does enough damage (accepting it is a very high risk choice).
promises to be a fascinating read in any case [;)]
It will be hard but I have some ideas. I also hope that we are not yet mid 1943 [:(]
