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ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Yes I meant to say historic feel. I would rather the Germans be a few months out on "Ochi" day than some weird take it or leave it situation where Germany could never go to war with Greece because they missed some false window of opportunity.

There can easily be a situation where Italy goes to war with Greece when Germany may not be at war with Greece. This because Greece aligned with USSR and the pact can not (yet) be broken.

warspite1

Now my head hurts.... So to stop the Germans helping the Italians, the Allies just need to align Greece to the USSR?

Mmmmmmm...

Was that possible in 5th Edition can you recall??

Yes. Unless both Germany and Italy DOW Greece and then there is two US entry rolls for this.

But, remember, that in order to align Greece to USSR then USSR can't be neutral. In at least one of our games we were forced to make this double DOW even though we didn't want to. USSR was at war with Japan and we didn't dare risk that they aligned Greece to USSR.

----

I do not remember 5th edition rules well enough. I think there was some sort of multiple states of war rules. But I do remember that gamey things were common once. I seem to recall that it was very common for USSR to DOW Denmark, for example, just to mess with Germany. I think that in some version of the old rules it was common to declare war on the Baltic countries with Italy in order to mess with USSR.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Depends which countries you are talking about - I have only considered Italy / CW and France. Are there any others? If you mean minor countries then yes, France and the CW should act in concert or not at all imo.

WWII showed that Japan did not act in concert with Germany and Italy so no, this should not apply to Japan.

Italy and Germany did not act in concert. Hitler didn't want Italy to DoW Greece, but Musolini did anyway.

Hitler DoW'd the US (which although idiotic did honor the Tripartite act and could be viewed as in concert with Japan), but Italy did not. The US DoW'd Italy on Dec 11/41.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Italy / France and the CW

Sorry but this is simply a NO under any and all circumstances imo. Churchill was desperate to keep France in the fight (and so was France funnily enough!). We are envisaging the following situation. We have to assume Mussolini decides he wants Corsica, French North Africa and Savoy. He doesn�t want any of the British Empire and so declares war only on France. It�s a stretch but I�ll go with it.

However, that is Mussolini�s side. What about Churchill and Reynaud? Italy has declared war on France but not the British. They launch an attack along the Mediterranean coast towards Toulon, supported by the Regia Marina. The French appeal for assistance from Britain.

Italian troops are being ferried to North Africa to seize Tunisia and Algeria and Morrocco.

"We need you to attack the Italian Fleet, they�re killing us here". Churchill chews on this cigar, sips a brandy and thinks about it for a nano second�. "Nah! I�d love to help seeing as I need my French Allies in the war and if the Italians break through it does not matter even if the Anglo-French forces hold the Germans in the north but you know what? I don�t think I�ll bother".

Where does that even begin to make any sense in the context of WWII?

In WiF, you are Churchill. You can DoW Italy if you like. That may go down badly in the isolationist US. You could send some units to stem the tide in the south of France and make it a tough go for the Italians through the Alps.

You also know that later on if Italy DoWs the CW, the US may once again swing towards supporting the CW in this war.

OTOH, if Italy can get a surprise impulse on the CW and is currently risking naval assets in the Med, the RN may be able to put a good hurt on their navy - especially if they are risking their TRSs - using their own surprise impulse.

Choices, choices, choices, each with their own set of pros and cons. Each spawning a set of choices for the other side.

That's what WiF is, and why it's still so popular after close to 30 years.

It is odd though. So what you are saying is that Italy 'could' stay neutral the entire game, correct? Then on the last impulse of the last turn DoW the UK and have their resources count towards victory to the Axis? Of course once the US is active, no reason not to declare war on Italy. However, the US would not have done this in RL if Italy was still neutral.

So where are these choices? After all once the US is active, there is no reason for the Allies not to declare war on whomever they want, Norway, Greece, etc. So it seems like the actual choices are arbitrary depending on whether the US is active or not. This is a challenge for all WWII games, how to model the ways powers interact based on the realities of the time. After all in HoI Germany can declare war on Italy since their resources would be better spent building German units versus Italian ones [:)]

A good political model for the 1930's has yet to be developed for any WWII game. So we are left with seeming hooky rules to try and have some semblance of the flavor of WWII. After all if things were played out in Europe differently, Roosevelt could have lost the 1940 election then there would no US involvement. Or at least a lot less. Especially for the Russians. So where are my choices for that?

After all some of the very ahistorical actions on both sides that the game allows would have had repercussions on a lot more than US entry picks. As an example if the UK declares war on Portugal, Spain should immediately join the Axis. But No, they get to sit around and wait so they can get Surprised in turn. Not much choice in that is there.

So if you want real choices in a WWII game they need to be a lot more dynamic than what we have now. Especially in WiF. This to me is the weakness of the game, not accurately reflecting ALL the actions of ALL neutrals instead of the just the US.

Yes Italy could refrain from making any DoWs. Eventually the Allies will of course DoW Italy. There are two "sides" in WiF and major powers are on one or the other side whether or not they are at war.

ORIGINAL: Orm

But, remember, that in order to align Greece to USSR then USSR can't be neutral. In at least one of our games we were forced to make this double DOW even though we didn't want to. USSR was at war with Japan and we didn't dare risk that they aligned Greece to USSR.

----

I do not remember 5th edition rules well enough. I think there was some sort of multiple states of war rules. But I do remember that gamey things were common once. I seem to recall that it was very common for USSR to DOW Denmark, for example, just to mess with Germany. I think that in some version of the old rules it was common to declare war on the Baltic countries with Italy in order to mess with USSR.

It is no big problem for either Spain or Greece or Belgium or anyone that is DoW'd by the Axis to get aligned by Russia (as you say - as long as Russia is Active at this point). That does not mean that the axis power is at war with Russia. It does not mean the Nazi-Soviet pact is broken. It means it is at war with the minor. This is why there are MSoW rules that say you can attack anybody in a hex of a country that you are at war with.

So even if Russian units somehow get moved to those countries (and thus become "Peacekeepers" in WiF-slang), they will likely get massacred along with units of the minor, especially since they'd have a lot more trouble tracing supply then if it were CW that were sent in.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

But, remember, that in order to align Greece to USSR then USSR can't be neutral. In at least one of our games we were forced to make this double DOW even though we didn't want to. USSR was at war with Japan and we didn't dare risk that they aligned Greece to USSR.

----

I do not remember 5th edition rules well enough. I think there was some sort of multiple states of war rules. But I do remember that gamey things were common once. I seem to recall that it was very common for USSR to DOW Denmark, for example, just to mess with Germany. I think that in some version of the old rules it was common to declare war on the Baltic countries with Italy in order to mess with USSR.

It is no big problem for either Spain or Greece or Belgium or anyone that is DoW'd by the Axis to get aligned by Russia (as you say - as long as Russia is Active at this point). That does not mean that the axis power is at war with Russia. It does not mean the Nazi-Soviet pact is broken. It means it is at war with the minor. This is why there are MSoW rules that say you can attack anybody in a hex of a country that you are at war with.

So even if Russian units somehow get moved to those countries (and thus become "Peacekeepers" in WiF-slang), they will likely get massacred along with units of the minor, especially since they'd have a lot more trouble tracing supply then if it were CW that were sent in.

If Italy DOW Greece and Greece aligns with USSR then Germany is not at war with Greece unless Germany is at war with USSR. That was my original point.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yes Italy could refrain from making any DoWs. Eventually the Allies will of course DoW Italy. There are two "sides" in WiF and major powers are on one or the other side whether or not they are at war.

I seem to recall some version of WIF where Italy was forced to stay neutral if they were neutral when USA had entered the war.

ORIGINAL: Orm

If Italy DOW Greece and Greece aligns with USSR then Germany is not at war with Greece unless Germany is at war with USSR. That was my original point.

Certainly, and it's an excellent point. I'm not trying to pick on you. What I was responding to is some of these posts that seem to be saying "I can DOW Belgium with Russia or align Belgium with Russia, etc. etc. and then use the MSoW rules to break the game." In fact the MSoW rules need to be in the game because the game gives players so many different choices. That's part of its attraction and richness. They also provide some of the balance that makes the choices real choices with both advantages and disadvantages to assess. If a choice is 100% advantage, it really isn't a choice.

There's a great example from the FAQ of how the MSoW rules could work to foil a certain Axis strategy:

Q. Can Japan DOW the CW in the same impulse Germany declares war on the Netherlands and then invade NEI and the CW territories, or does Japan have to wait until the impulse after Germany DOWs the Netherlands?

A. Yes she may DOW in the same impulse, and good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens.

I would never think that you were picking on me Paul. [:)]

I think we are both trying to say that the MSoW rules are needed.

---

Because the MSoW rules are needed or some other rules needs to replace them and that will probably be worse. Without MSoW there can be lots of what I consider gamey situations that can be done. But what I call gamey other call smart. [:)] [:D]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm


Trouble is that if you do not allow peacekeeper then neutral countries, read USSR, can cause serious trouble. So bad that it would break the game. Then you would need other rules to fix this.

warspite1


Why is this different to 5th Edition? I do not recall MSoW in 5th Edition - or if there was - we never played it!

Imagine that Germany deny to declare Vichy France and spend a couple of turns to struggle towards the Spanish border. Or Germany declares Vichy and almost at once collapse Vichy moving towards Spain. The goal seem obvious that Germany want to declare war on Spain and go for Gibraltar.

USSR now declares war on Spain. No intention of ever actually invading Spain. Only reason is to stop Germany from entering Spain and stop them from reaching Gibraltar. Germany had planned and built for Gibraltar and then invading UK. All those naval builds are now more or less wasted since Gibraltar is out of reach until Germany is at war with USSR.

warspite1

But how can the USSR declare war on Spain??? That is so gamey.. You've got to share a border or at least be able to make an attack to declare war surely?

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm



I was mainly thinking of the combination of CW, France and USSR.

warspite1

But again, there is absolutely no reason for those three to act in concert. Hell, if Churchill had had his way he would have sent troops to Finland (although they may have stopped off permanently in Lulea [;)])! and if Gamelin had had his way, he would have bombed the oil fields in the Caucasus!

Persia!

Warspite1

The fact they acted in concert once because it suited them does not mean they have to every time - Stalin and the west just didn't have that kind of relationship [;)]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Depends which countries you are talking about - I have only considered Italy / CW and France. Are there any others? If you mean minor countries then yes, France and the CW should act in concert or not at all imo.

WWII showed that Japan did not act in concert with Germany and Italy so no, this should not apply to Japan.

Italy and Germany did not act in concert. Hitler didn't want Italy to DoW Greece, but Musolini did anyway.

Hitler DoW'd the US (which although idiotic did honor the Tripartite act and could be viewed as in concert with Japan), but Italy did not. The US DoW'd Italy on Dec 11/41.

Warspite1

I did not say Germany and Italy did act in concert. I talked of Italy and the CW/France. I also mentioned Greece as an example in terms of MSoW, although NOT of them acting in concert.

Mussolini declared was on Greece without informing Hitler. When he made a total hash of things (quelle surprise) the Germans had to bail him out because Hitler did not want trouble in the Balkans flaring up as he was about to launch Barbarossa - not to mention the ever present concern over the oil fields of Romania.

The situation represented here is that Italy goes to war with Greece
Greece seeks help from USSR (although they do not share a border and there is no way USSR can give practical help).
In real life Stalin does not want to antagonise Hitler - especially as France has been kicked out of the war - but here he chooses to go to war with Italy (Germany's Axis partner) regardless.
Hitler cannot now rush to Greece to sort out the Italian mess because he has a pact with Stalin - even though this is a pact that Stalin has effectively broken
himself by going to war with Italy.....

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

If Italy DOW Greece and Greece aligns with USSR then Germany is not at war with Greece unless Germany is at war with USSR. That was my original point.

Certainly, and it's an excellent point. I'm not trying to pick on you. What I was responding to is some of these posts that seem to be saying "I can DOW Belgium with Russia or align Belgium with Russia, etc. etc. and then use the MSoW rules to break the game." In fact the MSoW rules need to be in the game because the game gives players so many different choices. That's part of its attraction and richness. They also provide some of the balance that makes the choices real choices with both advantages and disadvantages to assess. If a choice is 100% advantage, it really isn't a choice.

There's a great example from the FAQ of how the MSoW rules could work to foil a certain Axis strategy:

Q. Can Japan DOW the CW in the same impulse Germany declares war on the Netherlands and then invade NEI and the CW territories, or does Japan have to wait until the impulse after Germany DOWs the Netherlands?

A. Yes she may DOW in the same impulse, and good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens.

Warspite1


Mmm I really need to think about all this. So to help me what about this?

Germany needs to be able to go through Belgium - otherwise she has the unenviable task of going through the Maginot Line.
The USSR declares war on Belgium to frustrate Germany (forget real life and the Nazi-Soviet pact, this is purely in game terms). Belgium aligns with Germany.
Belgium is now a German controlled minor.
I do not believe USSR can get troops to Belgium - so Germany simply moves troops through friendly Belgium to attack France (1)
If the USSR can get troops to Belgium (via Denmark?) then the Germans can send peacekeepers to Belgium but they couldn't attack the Soviets.
So the Soviet action would only hinder Germany if Belgium could be conquered (2) OR they could send enough troops to the country to effectively bar the Germans way(3)?
In all three scenarios above, what is the status of CW and France here? Can they enter Belgium to fight the Germans?

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm


Trouble is that if you do not allow peacekeeper then neutral countries, read USSR, can cause serious trouble. So bad that it would break the game. Then you would need other rules to fix this.

warspite1

Why is this different to 5th Edition? I do not recall MSoW in 5th Edition - or if there was - we never played it!

Imagine that Germany deny to declare Vichy France and spend a couple of turns to struggle towards the Spanish border. Or Germany declares Vichy and almost at once collapse Vichy moving towards Spain. The goal seem obvious that Germany want to declare war on Spain and go for Gibraltar.

USSR now declares war on Spain. No intention of ever actually invading Spain. Only reason is to stop Germany from entering Spain and stop them from reaching Gibraltar. Germany had planned and built for Gibraltar and then invading UK. All those naval builds are now more or less wasted since Gibraltar is out of reach until Germany is at war with USSR.

Warspite1

But isn't Spain now a German controlled minor? Unlike the Finnish scenario, USSR cannot get troops to Spain and so Germany simply uses her new found minor to attack Gibraltar from.

Days of Decision solves some of this, at least vis-à-vis the USSR, by limiting the USSR to declaring war on major or minor powers it shares a land border with, although the USSR can influence and align any minor power in the game (if it can swing them all the way to Communism or if they are inherently sympathetic to Russia/pan-Slavic policy, anyway).

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Depends which countries you are talking about - I have only considered Italy / CW and France. Are there any others? If you mean minor countries then yes, France and the CW should act in concert or not at all imo.

WWII showed that Japan did not act in concert with Germany and Italy so no, this should not apply to Japan.

Italy and Germany did not act in concert. Hitler didn't want Italy to DoW Greece, but Musolini did anyway.

Hitler DoW'd the US (which although idiotic did honor the Tripartite act and could be viewed as in concert with Japan), but Italy did not. The US DoW'd Italy on Dec 11/41.

Warspite1

I did not say Germany and Italy did act in concert. I talked of Italy and the CW/France. I also mentioned Greece as an example in terms of MSoW, although NOT of them acting in concert.

Mussolini declared was on Greece without informing Hitler. When he made a total hash of things (quelle surprise) the Germans had to bail him out because Hitler did not want trouble in the Balkans flaring up as he was about to launch Barbarossa - not to mention the ever present concern over the oil fields of Romania.

The situation represented here is that Italy goes to war with Greece
Greece seeks help from USSR (although they do not share a border and there is no way USSR can give practical help).
In real life Stalin does not want to antagonise Hitler - especially as France has been kicked out of the war - but here he chooses to go to war with Italy (Germany's Axis partner) regardless.
Hitler cannot now rush to Greece to sort out the Italian mess because he has a pact with Stalin - even though this is a pact that Stalin has effectively broken
himself by going to war with Italy.....

I'm unclear if you are stating an historical hypothesis or if you are saying this happens in WiF under MSoW?

If the latter, we are assuming Russia is Active at this point, otherwise Russia can't align Greece. Assuming they are, then Germany can't DOW Greece because you can't DoW a minor that's aligned to a major, you must DoW the major. Therefore Germany cannot help Italy against Greece because of the N-S pact. At the same time, Russia does not go to war with Italy. Russia controls Greece and if it can get land units there, they will defend Greek hexes and can be supported by Russian aircraft. Both of those are extremely difficult for Russia to do.

If Italy is not yet at war with the CW or France, her naval superiority in the Med means she'll likely conquer Greece without too much trouble. If already at war with one or both, then it probably was a big mistake to DoW Greece in this situation.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1


Why is this different to 5th Edition? I do not recall MSoW in 5th Edition - or if there was - we never played it!

Imagine that Germany deny to declare Vichy France and spend a couple of turns to struggle towards the Spanish border. Or Germany declares Vichy and almost at once collapse Vichy moving towards Spain. The goal seem obvious that Germany want to declare war on Spain and go for Gibraltar.

USSR now declares war on Spain. No intention of ever actually invading Spain. Only reason is to stop Germany from entering Spain and stop them from reaching Gibraltar. Germany had planned and built for Gibraltar and then invading UK. All those naval builds are now more or less wasted since Gibraltar is out of reach until Germany is at war with USSR.

warspite1

But how can the USSR declare war on Spain??? That is so gamey.. You've got to share a border or at least be able to make an attack to declare war surely?

In WiF any major except China can DoW any neutral minor (although the US has to meet certain conditions first). The only common border rule is the one in the Neutrality pact rule.

This would be a really bad play by the USSR. Germany would just align Spain, and walk through it on the way to taking Gibraltar.

But suppose Germany DoWs Spain and aligning them to Russia meant the Germans couldn't attack Spain because of the N-S Pact? The MSoW rules prevent that. The MSoW rules allow Germany to attack Spain no matter who it aligns with.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Mmm I really need to think about all this. So to help me what about this?

Germany needs to be able to go through Belgium - otherwise she has the unenviable task of going through the Maginot Line.
The USSR declares war on Belgium to frustrate Germany (forget real life and the Nazi-Soviet pact, this is purely in game terms). Belgium aligns with Germany.
Belgium is now a German controlled minor.
I do not believe USSR can get troops to Belgium - so Germany simply moves troops through friendly Belgium to attack France (1)
If the USSR can get troops to Belgium (via Denmark?) then the Germans can send peacekeepers to Belgium but they couldn't attack the Soviets.
So the Soviet action would only hinder Germany if Belgium could be conquered (2) OR they could send enough troops to the country to effectively bar the Germans way(3)?
In all three scenarios above, what is the status of CW and France here? Can they enter Belgium to fight the Germans?

1, 2 and 3 are all true. How 2 or 3 could be accomplished by Russia is certainly a very big question.

In this scenario, the CW and France are at war with Germany and once Belgium aligns with Germany, they are at war with Belgium. They can enter Belgium and attack German and Belgian units.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: paulderynck




Italy and Germany did not act in concert. Hitler didn't want Italy to DoW Greece, but Musolini did anyway.

Hitler DoW'd the US (which although idiotic did honor the Tripartite act and could be viewed as in concert with Japan), but Italy did not. The US DoW'd Italy on Dec 11/41.

Warspite1

I did not say Germany and Italy did act in concert. I talked of Italy and the CW/France. I also mentioned Greece as an example in terms of MSoW, although NOT of them acting in concert.

Mussolini declared was on Greece without informing Hitler. When he made a total hash of things (quelle surprise) the Germans had to bail him out because Hitler did not want trouble in the Balkans flaring up as he was about to launch Barbarossa - not to mention the ever present concern over the oil fields of Romania.

The situation represented here is that Italy goes to war with Greece
Greece seeks help from USSR (although they do not share a border and there is no way USSR can give practical help).
In real life Stalin does not want to antagonise Hitler - especially as France has been kicked out of the war - but here he chooses to go to war with Italy (Germany's Axis partner) regardless.
Hitler cannot now rush to Greece to sort out the Italian mess because he has a pact with Stalin - even though this is a pact that Stalin has effectively broken
himself by going to war with Italy.....

I'm unclear if you are stating an historical hypothesis or if you are saying this happens in WiF under MSoW?

If the latter, we are assuming Russia is Active at this point, otherwise Russia can't align Greece. Assuming they are, then Germany can't DOW Greece because you can't DoW a minor that's aligned to a major, you must DoW the major. Therefore Germany cannot help Italy against Greece because of the N-S pact. At the same time, Russia does not go to war with Italy. Russia controls Greece and if it can get land units there, they will defend Greek hexes and can be supported by Russian aircraft. Both of those are extremely difficult for Russia to do.

If Italy is not yet at war with the CW or France, her naval superiority in the Med means she'll likely conquer Greece without too much trouble. If already at war with one or both, then it probably was a big mistake to DoW Greece in this situation.

Warspite1

This was me trying to put how the rule plays out {in that specific scenario) into an historical context. Because of the fact that the USSR is far away from Greece and Spain and Belgium, the rule is more palatable - although still ahistorical (but then having said that - the scenario needs to be ahistorical i.e. Soviet Union not neutral, for it to happen!).

The Finnish front is most problematic of those discussed - for the very reason that Germany is allowed to fight a full blown - albeit defensive - war. I do not know in what other scenarios this problem may happen too.

This has been very useful in helping me better understand the rules here. With the very notable exception of Finland, and to a lesser extent Italy/CW/France, I am beginning to see what the rules here are achieving.

Its not quite as cut and dried as I thought....

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

But, remember, that in order to align Greece to USSR then USSR can't be neutral. In at least one of our games we were forced to make this double DOW even though we didn't want to. USSR was at war with Japan and we didn't dare risk that they aligned Greece to USSR.

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I do not remember 5th edition rules well enough. I think there was some sort of multiple states of war rules. But I do remember that gamey things were common once. I seem to recall that it was very common for USSR to DOW Denmark, for example, just to mess with Germany. I think that in some version of the old rules it was common to declare war on the Baltic countries with Italy in order to mess with USSR.

It is no big problem for either Spain or Greece or Belgium or anyone that is DoW'd by the Axis to get aligned by Russia (as you say - as long as Russia is Active at this point). That does not mean that the axis power is at war with Russia. It does not mean the Nazi-Soviet pact is broken. It means it is at war with the minor. This is why there are MSoW rules that say you can attack anybody in a hex of a country that you are at war with.

So even if Russian units somehow get moved to those countries (and thus become "Peacekeepers" in WiF-slang), they will likely get massacred along with units of the minor, especially since they'd have a lot more trouble tracing supply then if it were CW that were sent in.

For USSR to be active it would need to be at war with a/several major power/s, no?