Matrix Games Forums

Don't think of it as failure, just not achieving all the success hoped for

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Funny how a (small) Japanese helicopter carrier has aroused (also negatively) attention of the crowd here...[&:]....As with the Germans, the US should be happy to have such a proficient partner as Japan when they're increasingly picking on both China and Russia. The former WW2 enemies were quickly taken into the warmth when the new post-war enemy, the Soviet Union, was created.

Interesting item in that respect: As NATO was established and Scandinavia became an important part of the NATO northern flank, German commanders of the former German occupying forces in Norway, in 1948 were called in for consultations on how to defend Northern Norway against the Soviets. Participating in these consultations were also Swedish and Finnish officers and politicians - all very hush-hush. Conclusion: If there was a Soviet invasion - Finnmark would have to be "burnt down" - as was done by the Germans during their withdrawal in 1944/45. Norwegian Labour Party politicians accepted that conclusion.

The present world situation is not unlike that of 1939/41 except in Asia China and Japan have switched places. Now it is China that threatens US hegemony in the East.

In Europe the situation is rather similar, but worse (for Russia). Like Hitler, NATO has seen to edge up to Russia's border, using Hitler's old partners Hungary, Romania, Finland and Bulgaria. In addition to that the "old" NATO partners Norway, Denmark and Turkey - and some new ones - Poland and the Baltic states. And a Sweden thinly disguised as "neutral".

What is all this for? Did not US/NATO promise not to expand eastwards after the end of the Cold War? How can Putin not react the way he does (if he has...?..).

What would have happened if Stalin had not taken Ribbentrop's bait after he was rejected on his (several) proposals to Britain and France for a coalition to stop Hitler's expansion plans, which gave Stalin an increased buffer zone in Poland? What would have happened if Stalin had not occupied the Baltics before the German attack? What would have happened if the Soviets had not seen to increase the Leningrad buffer zone towards the Finnish border? As a compensation the Finns were offered twice the area along other parts of the common border line. The Finns refused to see the implications of Hitler's aggressive stand (which was open to see for anybody in his testament - the book Mein Kampf). The Finns are on the same route now, howling along with the West's propaganda choir against Russia. They, of all (and Poland), should have learnt - that there is no help to get from the West when the shit hits the fan. And now - Ukraina!

Has this anything to do with "Kaga"..? Of course, it's all part of the same game.

I had hopes for Donald Trump as he was the only (as far as I know) US leader that openly declared that he would normalize relations with Russia. Everything else are minor details compared with this - nuclear war is on the horizon. Unfortunately, President Trump does not seem to be able to stand up against the solid front of US politicians that want the opposite - an open conflict with Russia. Europe is the one that shall suffer.

Fred

See, you don't name big capitol warships with those names, just so, because, accidentally.

Of course the fact brings in itself a very deep meaning.

Think if you want, as a comparison, what would be the reaction if Germany launched a Bismarck big warship, or named Grossdetschland or Lehr a panzergrenadier regiment. (Odin and Grafin, please, keep the calm!)

Stupor, at its least (Putin would have jumped 2 feet on his seat).

If you asked in the street "what do you think about the names of the new Japanes warships, Kaga, Kongo, etc" that probaly would nor arise much of an interest,

but if you asked it in the US Department of the Navy, or in its Chinese counterpart, the question may have had more than a pair of eyebrushues rised.




Self difense can be implemented also by smaller means.

First of all, the issue started not in the straightest of the way, if would concede me, by "bypassing" the peace-surrender terms naming them "helicopter carriers";

more cold be said and written, also regarding China, the Communist Party and their role (positive only, for China and the world; think, history's perspective, what was China before, what it achieved for herself and its people, the stabilty and unity in last 70 years, facts relevant only without ideology bias,

but could it be re stated that "those who don't learn history are condemened to relive it"?

You asked for it: The Communist Party of China murdered more than 50 millions of Chinese. People were murdered by communist because they had a burgeoise haircut, fathers were forced to kill their sons and vice versa... They were persons, millions of persons, with sons, daughters, fathers.
To whom are the China streets, squares named? "Condemned to repeat it?"

There's no need to get this thread locked. Spout that stuff on Facebook where it belongs, not here.

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
In short, I tried to be funny but failed. [:(]

It's OK. It was an uphill battle for you from the beginning. It's just not in your German nature. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
In short, I tried to be funny but failed. [:(]

It's OK. It was an uphill battle for you from the beginning. It's just not in your German nature. [;)]

[:(]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin



Ummmm is it just me or did the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor ?

Clearly you haven't seen this scene from Animal House:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

"This situation requires are really futile and stupid gesture. And we're the guys to do it." [:D]

Argh I know. My quote was the official unoffical reply to your quote but it isnt as widespread as I thought.
In short, I tried to be funny but failed. [:(]

Its OK, I got the joke. C'mon CB, everyone knows Animal House, its a classic.

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
In short, I tried to be funny but failed. [:(]

It's OK. It was an uphill battle for you from the beginning. It's just not in your German nature. [;)]

[:(]

Aww man...I was kidding about the whole 'unfunny German' cliche'. Many of the Germans I've met have an outstanding sense of humor. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
[:(]

Aww man...

[:D][:D][:D]

Can second that one for Germans though. Even if might seem peculiar at times.
Famous killer joke would not be effective otherwise

In the book Whatever You Do, Don't Run: True Tales of a Botswana Safari Guide, Peter Allison tells a very funny story about a tour group who were bird watchers from Germany. For days he couldn't get from them nor did he see among them the slightest smile, until...

We listened to the audio book (recommended) so I can't well transcribe the passage and I don't want to ruin it with an inept spoiler. It's a great book and the Audible narrator made it a great listen. Highly recommended.

I'm sure he was not speaking of stereotypes, just describing an experience with that particular tour group. A *very* serious-faced bunch. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Revthought

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Ah more profits for the military-industrial-bankster complex [>:] Look up Japans debt status - but Greece did also buy more weapons..as long the big companies and banks profit everything is fine [8|]

Endless creedyness of bankster onlyone example:

Banks Get Bailout Money, Then Give BILLIONS in Bonuses! Stock Market Insanity!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcRUUILVVlY

Don't listen to the haters. Haters going to hate. Just know you are not the only one here who thinks this way about military expenditure; that being said, there is truth in the axiom "know your audience." [:'(]

PS look at US debt. We owe about the same per person as Greece does, and what do we have to show for it? We have much bigger aircraft carriers and lots of antiquated ASMs.

I know most countries have so high debt it can not be payed back for dozens of years.
But found it quite funny revisiting this thread this poster said "tired of political posts from me" (or something like that). Guess he confused me with someone, as I have as good as zero interest in politics (i think it is mostly theater), I wonder if the Chicken poster can come up with "political" posts from me in the last months at all... normally some species of birds are quite clever, so I assume if he choses that name with chicken he thinks he is too...but even clever persons can make errors and confuse things or persons, right [>:]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
I know most countries have so high debt it can not be payed back for dozens of years.
But found it quite funny revisiting this thread this poster said "tired of political posts from me" (or something like that). Guess he confused me with someone, as I have as good as zero interest in politics (i think it is mostly theater), I wonder if the Chicken poster can come up with "political" posts from me in the last months at all... normally some species of birds are quite clever, so I assume if he choses that name with chicken he thinks he is too...but even clever persons can make errors and confuse things or persons, right [>:]

I assume that your thinly-veiled "Chicken" references are to me and my response (unquoted) to your initial post on this thread.

First off, some 'rules of order' if I may:

1. The moderator reminded us to 'As far as the politics of it all, let's leave that for another forum' on post 8 of this thread when it appeared as though there was a whiff of political discussion in posts 6 & 7. A moderator's preemptive reminder to avoid political discussion in a thread should be construed as a polite warning to thread participants. Apparently you missed that.

2. Your post (#15) on this thread launched into a variety of tired and hackneyed political sloganeering, attacking the so-called military industrial complex, bank bailouts, stock market insanity, "creedyness" [sic] of bankers, Greek weapons purchases, Japanese debt and apparently unjust focus on profits for banks and big companies.

Your invocation of the snoring emoticon and the rolling-eye emoticon presumably substituted for your personal opinions / emotions on the matter. You perceive the military-industrial-bankster complex as 'boring' (most Europeans don't mean boring the same way most Americans do. Most Europeans use the term to describe something that they wish would go away, not something that literally puts them to sleep from boredom, as Americans do). You 'rolled your eyes' at the concept of big company profits.

You managed to throw all this sociopolitical spaghetti on the wall in a relatively short 50 word post that didn't make much sense. The construction of the post reminded me of an angry old man shaking his fist at the imaginary 'big brother' government or some other imaginary race-based boogey-man. It had a lot more in common with a rant, a blather, a diatribe of ill-conceived political postulates than it did a contribution to the thread about the launch of the Kaga.

3. You clearly didn't understand the overtly political nature of your previous post and so you apparently elected to repost MORE political rubbish on post #20.

So you attempted to draw out additional political discussion in post #20 by soliciting discussion on whether or not countries should buy weapons at all, whether national debt was a positive thing or not and the societal cost:benefit analysis of self-defense vs. public debt.

4. In the intervening posts, others posted their political viewpoints as well and postulated many things about whether or not this was a good thing (Japan's expansion of their military footprint), debt levels, etc. The political discussions then involved which country was more likely to be an aggressor (Japan vs. China). Several posters suggested 'reining it in' about the political talk.

Several people continued to blather on about their personal political views in spite of the moderator's aforementioned post and in spite of the off-topic nature of their posts and in spite of the repeated requests/suggestions to tone down the political rhetoric.

5. The thread quieted down, with no posts for the last 4 days.

6. Your post (#70 in the thread) covered no new ground on a thread that had been quiet. Apparently I was unclear exactly how your post broached the political previously. I think I've corrected that now. Sorry if I was unclear earlier.

I've ZERO interest in re-reading your posts to find whether or not you've broached certain political topics over the last year.

I'm not at all confused. The jumbled smorgasbord of topics you splattered on the thread with your blathering on post #15 met my (and others') definitions of political topics that were expressly warned against. Do you not think decrying "creedy" bankers or the domestic debt level or the cost:benefit analysis of equipping a military broaches the political?

There are probably other topics that you wished to spew about. Decidedly political topics that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Japanese launch of the Kaga. I'm completely uninterested in your political viewpoints on this thread, this forum or this website. Doubly so when you've been warned off the topic by a moderator. Triply so when you've been warned off by other well-intentioned posters.

I will occasionally lock horns with people via PM or email. That's the way to do it. That way threads don't get locked up for no reason. I encourage you to seek this outlet rather than posting (again) here.

ORIGINAL: Leandros

What would have happened if Stalin had not taken Ribbentrop's bait after he was rejected on his (several) proposals to Britain and France for a coalition to stop Hitler's expansion plans, which gave Stalin an increased buffer zone in Poland? What would have happened if Stalin had not occupied the Baltics before the German attack? What would have happened if the Soviets had not seen to increase the Leningrad buffer zone towards the Finnish border? As a compensation the Finns were offered twice the area along other parts of the common border line.

Fred

warspite1

Hi Leandros, can you confirm what proposals were put to the Western Allies by Uncle Joe and why they were rejected?

Thanks

Chickenboy, seems confirmed you are confused (note this can happen to everyone, do not take it negative)

I was not warned by a mod at all and also not by "another member", in fact another member agreed with me. You are the only one (and I do not believe you are a mod?). But ok, I have my opinion and we disagree. Perfectly fine.

I just do not want random ppl tell falsehoods about me. I corrected you and the topic is done now. Everyone can see for himself that I have no "political" posts at all here in recent time (by clicking my profile and check it out). This is just for the record I do not like false info like coming from the Chicken, but will leave here and he can post whatever he likes. As a sidenote: You seem to have quite "stereotypical" views about differences from Europeans and Americans, I do not agree with these views too. I rather look at the person not nationas.[:-] So we do not agree in many topics, no biggy, in fact it is fine. If you knock oFf the false info - everything ok. (You are the only one who posts falsehoods no other poster in fact)

Edit, I noted the mod posted this:

"As far as the politics of it all, let's leave that for another forum.

Bill "

After a post from "adarbrauner" and I had not posted before, so I was not warned. But I agree that this warning to Adar might also be widened to my post (even if not political), if the mod did see at that way, I appologize to Bill. But only to Bill. I knock it off now as I acknowlege too, that players come here to have fun and not read "negative" stuff. Also I have no issues at all with the ship name.
( I noted meanwhile Chicken edited his post and corrected one of his mistakes)

EDIT2: I noted another FALSE INFO from the bird, he said "newbie", in fact I was in the Matrix Forum for almost 10 years. Before I believe another nickname and was active in the SP, TOAW and Harpoon forums, I also created OOB and scens for these games. I would say this could be defined as "veteran" not to mention the "troll battles" raging years ago in the general forums (LOL what a waste of time it was, but fun too). Finally Matrix said Stop to the sillyness there [:)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Leandros

What would have happened if Stalin had not taken Ribbentrop's bait after he was rejected on his (several) proposals to Britain and France for a coalition to stop Hitler's expansion plans, which gave Stalin an increased buffer zone in Poland? What would have happened if Stalin had not occupied the Baltics before the German attack? What would have happened if the Soviets had not seen to increase the Leningrad buffer zone towards the Finnish border? As a compensation the Finns were offered twice the area along other parts of the common border line.

Fred

warspite1

Hi Leandros, can you confirm what proposals were put to the Western Allies by Uncle Joe and why they were rejected?

Thanks

Leandros is probably referring to the Soviet pre Munich 1938 proposal to enter into an "alliance/pact" with the UK and France to safeguard the east. Neither London or France was that interested in linking up with a communist country but the killer was that Soviet participation was meaningless unless transit rights were granted by Poland. Neither Poland nor Czechoslovakia would tolerate any Soviet troops on their respective territories.

It was this earlier experience which made Stalin so cool to the late 1939 Anglo-Franco diplomatic approach.

Alfred

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Leandros

What would have happened if Stalin had not taken Ribbentrop's bait after he was rejected on his (several) proposals to Britain and France for a coalition to stop Hitler's expansion plans, which gave Stalin an increased buffer zone in Poland? What would have happened if Stalin had not occupied the Baltics before the German attack? What would have happened if the Soviets had not seen to increase the Leningrad buffer zone towards the Finnish border? As a compensation the Finns were offered twice the area along other parts of the common border line.

Fred

warspite1

Hi Leandros, can you confirm what proposals were put to the Western Allies by Uncle Joe and why they were rejected?

Thanks

Leandros is probably referring to the Soviet pre Munich 1938 proposal to enter into an "alliance/pact" with the UK and France to safeguard the east. Neither London or France was that interested in linking up with a communist country but the killer was that Soviet participation was meaningless unless transit rights were granted by Poland. Neither Poland nor Czechoslovakia would tolerate any Soviet troops on their respective territories.

It was this earlier experience which made Stalin so cool to the late 1939 Anglo-Franco diplomatic approach.

Alfred

warspite1

I assumed this was the case, but wanted to check as I am only aware of the USSR's insistence on transit rights across Poland - which of course were not Britain and France's rights to agree or disagree - and to which it would be unfair to suggest the Western Allies rejected.

In addition to the above Stalin also made many references to the forces that would be committed, especially WRT Great Britain. Something like "how many divisions did you say?". His references of course were to the Soviets supplying most of the manpower to bail the west out. Something he was not too keen on doing either. In the end he felt, wrongly as we know, he was better off siding with Hitler. BTW there was no way either Poland or Czechoslovakia were going to let Soviet troops on their territory. Heck Poland had fought a war with the Soviets over the border.

Oops.

ORIGINAL: rustysi

In addition to the above Stalin also made many references to the forces that would be committed, especially IRT Great Britain. Something like "how many divisions did you say?". His references of course were to the Soviets supplying most of the manpower to bail the west out. Something he was not too keen on doing either. In the end he felt, wrongly as we know, he was better off siding with Hitler. BTW there was no way either Poland or Czechoslovakia were going to let Soviet troops on their territory. Heck Poland had fought a war with the Soviets over the border.

warspite1

Exactly. Those who say that the Western Allies mis-managed the situation ignore a) Stalin's intrinsic mis-trust of the west, b) Poland (and Romania's) refusal to allow Soviet troops on their soil, and c) that Hitler could offer Stalin inducements that the democracies couldn't - namely a free hand in the Baltic States, Finland, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia.

You're ignoring another variable here. Uncle Joe (an utter paranoid) was convinced that the western democracies -France and the UK- were hoping, expecting Hitler would punch the bear the first one.

*grab popcorn and enjoy*

Thus they would kill each other. Finish the exhausted victor. Two birds with one stone

The funny thing is that Stalin was possibly right. Both the French and British (and of course the Soviets and the guy with the funny moustache) were ruthless enough

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

You're ignoring another variable here. Uncle Joe (an utter paranoid) was convinced that the western democracies -France and the UK- were hoping, expecting Hitler would punch the bear the first one.

*grab popcorn and enjoy*

Thus they would kill each other. Finish the exhausted victor. Two birds with one stone

The funny thing is that Stalin was possibly right. Both the French and British (and of course the Soviets and the guy with the funny moustache) were ruthless enough

warspite1

Whoops - mis-read your post and answered with the wrong point [:)]

Anyway, now to answer the actual point.....

..... I think that undoubtedly Joe 'Paranoid' Stalin was thinking that the Western Allies would be hoping they would slug it out with the Germans. Funny old game though isn't it? Stalin's actions made his thoughts a self-fulfilling prophecy. #carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]