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ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

From what I have seen the Allies have a distinct 1940 advantage in that the Brits can still put far more forces into France than their real 1940 ability to mobilize allows AND no account is taken of the fragile morale of the French Army in 1940 and the feckless defeatist mindset of their government As to the USSR- allow their armor/mech the same op points as the Germans from the very beginning.

1. Yes UK can field more units in France but at the cost of a less good defense in Egypt. UK won't prevent France to fall.

2. The fragile morale of French army is taken into account in their experience. All French land units have 40% experience.

3. For USSR, in 1941, their mech/armor were too big. Impossible to command by their officers. That's why they have created brigades and later bring back the corps. But, it was in 1942. The OP points of Russian armor/mechanized corps is an elegant way to present this problem imo.

About 3. more intel here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanise ... iet_Union)

That being said, during the war against the Axis, all mechanised corps stationed in frontline areas were destroyed during the early phase of the invasion of the Soviet Union (including 4th and 6th), and less than a month after the attack, the Red Army formally abolished the Mechanised Corps as a formation type. Remaining tanks were concentrated in smaller formations that were easier to handle.

In September 1942, the General Headquarters (Stavka) authorized the formation of a new type of mechanised corps which was to become the main operational mechanised formation for the remainder of the war. They were about the same size as a German panzer division, and designed as a true combined-arms formation with a good balance of armor, infantry, and artillery. Mechanised corps were not to be used in breakthrough battles, but only in the exploitation phase of an operation.

I won't say that the UK can not prevent France from falling...because they can.

IF they dump a full all in strategy, since they do not need anything in Africa until they lose Paris, they can have a huge army in France.
I believe I have had 2 armor corps, 2 mech corps and 8 army corps and still a few corps in the UK to keep from being invaded just in case.
More if you get rid of the bombers. I think you can get a 3rd armor from the UK...
Add to that a French armor, yes they are "weaker" but you have an armor/mech force equal to the Germans.

I have stopped a LOT of players from taking France and decimated the German army. A few times even taking out all their armor.

The Brits can quickly retreat to all the ports and get out when the time comes running to Africa...but they definitely can cause a major headache in France.

I personally have stopped this because only 1 player, to my memory, has been able to get through France against me when I do (with losses of at least 4 German corps and very heavy damage to the rest)...though I have not played Harry like this (he has asked a few times) but I am sure he could get through though at what cost.

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I won't say that the UK can not prevent France from falling...because they can.

IF they dump a full all in strategy, since they do not need anything in Africa until they lose Paris, they can have a huge army in France.
I believe I have had 2 armor corps, 2 mech corps and 8 army corps and still a few corps in the UK to keep from being invaded just in case.
More if you get rid of the bombers. I think you can get a 3rd armor from the UK...
Add to that a French armor, yes they are "weaker" but you have an armor/mech force equal to the Germans.

I have stopped a LOT of players from taking France and decimated the German army. A few times even taking out all their armor.

The Brits can quickly retreat to all the ports and get out when the time comes running to Africa...but they definitely can cause a major headache in France.

I personally have stopped this because only 1 player, to my memory, has been able to get through France against me when I do (with losses of at least 4 German corps and very heavy damage to the rest)...though I have not played Harry like this (he has asked a few times) but I am sure he could get through though at what cost.

You can do this against me after next patch, please. Maybe I can actually beat you in a game.

ORIGINAL: stjeand

IF they dump a full all in strategy, since they do not need anything in Africa until they lose Paris, they can have a huge army in France.
I believe I have had 2 armor corps, 2 mech corps and 8 army corps and still a few corps in the UK to keep from being invaded just in case.
More if you get rid of the bombers. I think you can get a 3rd armor from the UK...
Add to that a French armor, yes they are "weaker" but you have an armor/mech force equal to the Germans.

Using which patch level? V1.00.141?

With the new air rules coming into play I don't think the UK can afford to do this.
The German air will pound the crap out of the armor losing Opts.

I can get I believe 6 armor/mech built as Germany for France.

If the French do pull out the Italians have a field day.
If the British pull out then I take Africa

Someone is losing something.

I have not replayed this in a while since it made the game boring and unfun...
Maybe it does not work any more.
Don't forget the UK lost 100 str and it was due to this strategy.

Keep in mind KNOWING what the Allies are doing will change what you do as the Axis.
The Axis can not tell what the Allies are doing this until Feb / March of 40...by then their builds are set.

So Italy is sitting trying to build their early armor / mech / mtn troops...
Germany is not likely building 120 LC to invade the UK...But their normal 2 armor / 2 mech / then armor / mech / fighter


I have never had an issue in Africa because the UK can transport damaged corps from France there very quickly and Italy can't do anything until Paris falls.
And begin emergency repairs on them before the Germans can mount any sort of invasion.

Also the German air has to win against the Brits and French air or they can't do anything. There has been a game or ​two that as the Germans I lost 60 / 40 and then had to ground my air. Plus the British and French have 4 bombers now to slow the Germans if they want to use them as such.


BUT all this is speculation with a patch I have not tested.


As the Germans, yes normally 4 armor / 2 mech / another armor / mech coming in June?
As the Brits...IF they leave the WDF in Africa 2 armor / 2 mech....France 1 armor



And yes someone is losing...in my experience so far it has been the Germans.



Again I am not complaining since I do not do this...
Just hoping that this does not happen is all.

I only use 4 panzers for France. Anything else is overkill. I also (may) build airpower,u-boats and lots of infantry. France is mainly a slow-moving infantry battle.

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The Russians have a lot of reserve units.

According to this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_armies

Around 40 armies were formed from June 1941 to December 1941.

There are 25 Reserve Unit i.e. 25 armies in the Deployment queue at the start of Europe 1939 scenario.
All these armies are Assault 1939. AND you need the PP to upgrade them as well.

AND you need the PP for 15 Armies to reach December 1941 with something not far from history.

An army Assault 1941 costs 216 PP. 15 x 216 PP = 3240 PP

Let say that with the new rail repair rate, we will save around 10 corps thus 5 armies after conversion, plus the upgrades to be done in terms of advancement.

So, they are a shortage of 10 reserve armies to be built. That's a lot of production points.

AND, at the same time, with the new air rule, I am guessing that the Soviets will need to invest a LOT in planes to defend themselves. Repairing and upgrading their weak units will take PP and time.

In conclusion, I would not be against few more reserve armies at Assault 1939... let say around 5.

Time will tell us if this is needed or not. The goal is 1942. For me, in 1942, Germans must have the initiative. They must be able to attack BUT NOT everywhere on the frontline.

And I forgot the upkeep needed to repair all the damage done by the Germans to my on-map units... [:D]

To be fair, in addition to the Reserve Armies and the built Armies the Soviets will also receive Armies created from the conversion of Corps to Armies.

My gripe isn't with the number of Soviet Armies, but rather with their quality. In particular that the Reserve Armies are only 39 tech. I personally would rather see them all come on with 41 Tech. I suppose this might be unfair to an Axis player who invades Russia in 1940, but how often is that really going to happen? I think it would be better to get things right for the 1941 invasion that happens in most games, and not worry about the 1940 invasion that almost never happens or the 42 invasion that seldom happens.

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

To be fair, in addition to the Reserve Armies and the built Armies the Soviets will also receive Armies created from the conversion of Corps to Armies.

My gripe isn't with the number of Soviet Armies, but rather with their quality. In particular that the Reserve Armies are only 39 tech. I personally would rather see them all come on with 41 Tech. I suppose this might be unfair to an Axis player who invades Russia in 1940, but how often is that really going to happen? I think it would be better to get things right for the 1941 invasion that happens in most games, than for the 1940 invasion that almost never happens or the 42 invasion that seldom happens.

After few games with 1.00.141, and defeats [:D], my opinion is:

UK & USA are well balanced (The Battle of Atlantic, if well played by the Allies, is closed to perfection).
My only issue is Shore Bombardment that is too powerful in helping the Allies during Italy conquest.

France is well balanced

Italy is perhaps a little overrated but that's ok.

Germany is ok.

Russia is clearly not powerful enough. I think I understand now the 30% experience because it obliges the Russian to fight. I think a lot of people forgot the run-away strategy from the early days of the game. The 30% experience is just for this.

Yes the corps to army conversion is there but how many corps do you really save in 1941? In particular, when Germans launch Barbarossa in April 1941 (Still don't understand how people do the build up so quickly).

Russia needs to throw armies after armies to slow down the Germans. I don't care if the reserve armies are Assault 1939.
“Quantity has a Quality All Its Own”. And, that's why more reserve armies for the Russian can be a solution. I don't ask for 50, I just ask for 5 more.

A solution to build a two line defense in front of Leningrad, Moscow or Voronezh now that you don't lose entrenchment with swapping. But not everywhere of course so that the Germans can still do plenty of damage in 1942.

My favorite tactic (may be a bad one) is to send a fresh 30% experience Assault 1939 infantry army on the frontline. Just for the losses, and just for gaining experience. Only way to gain experience by the way.

The right feeling for Barbarossa, and Case Blue, is the German guy super happy to have destroy 4 armies the last turn just to find 4 new armies in front of him. In 1941, with the infantry corps, I have this feeling of “Quantity has a Quality All Its Own”.

In 1942, once you have merged the few corps remaining, and build around 10 new infantry armies, I don't have anymore this feeling. Once Germans armor breaks your front, there is nothing behind to stop them to encircle and then this is game over.

You don't give me quality fair enough. Give me quantity then.

I just launch Europe 1942 by curiosity. Small poll, who is reaching this OOB by end of June 1942?

62 Infantry Armies
5 Tank Corps
2 Paratrooper Corps
7 Air Superiority Group
2 Ground Attack Group
7 Tactical Air Group
1 Strategic Air Group
0 Mechanized Corps => but disbanding all Mechanized Corps gives 1450 PP (first turn of Europe 1939) => which gives only 8 armies Assault 1939.

So, let's say 25 reserve armies + 2 already on the map in Europe 1939 + 3 Siberian armies + what you buy at first turn of Barbarossa (7~10 armies at best?) + all mechanized disbanded = 25 + 2 + 3 + 10 + 8 = 48 + one per turn you are lucky.

Are you reaching these numbers? Just tell me the truth, I am a bad player, right? [:)]

In my current game, end of June 1942, I will be around 58 infantry armies with the disband of all my tactical bombers (gain of 770 PP). And, I am in a bad shape. [:D]
Shame, I am about to win BoA...

I will let you know if/when my game with MM foes that far. I certainly won't have an air force anywhere near that size though.

But I think people forget that the Russians did lose a lot of men and gave up a lot of ground from June to November 42. The problem for the Russians in 1942 is making them weak enough so that they Bend but don't Break. Very difficult to get this right, especially since players skill levels will have a huge impact.

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I will let you know if/when my game with MM foes that far. I certainly won't have an air force anywhere near that size though.

Thanks

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

But I think people forget that the Russians did lose a lot of men and gave up a lot of ground from June to November 42. The problem for the Russians in 1942 is making them weak enough so that they Bend but don't Break. Very difficult to get this right, especially since players skill levels will have a huge impact.

I absolutely do not forget it. Case Blue was a big retreat for Russians but never a collapse.

But doing some little calculation, imagine I am withdrawing on the red dots line below. Count the number of red dots.
There are 40 red dots meaning a need for 40 armies.

In the north, between Leningrad and Moscow, I count a need of 20 armies.
To protect from the Finns, may be 5 armies.

My red dots line is on the Oka river because it is almost impossible to hold Tula in this game. And even on the Oka river, the game is ignoring all the marshes and forests east of Moscow on a line Moscow - Vladimir - Gorki.

And this is a one line defense with armies that are not good due to low experience.

People disband planes to buy land units: tanks or armies. Why? Because obviously, there is a lack of land units.

Retaking this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_armies

There are 12 Infantry armies that were formed in 1939. On the game map at the beginning of Europe 1939, we have only 2 Infantry armies. We need for Russia more armies. Bad ok, but more.

Germans must have the feeling of quantity. Three solutions:
1. put more Infantry armies on the map in Europe 1939 scenario
2. put more reserve Infantry armies in the Deployment queue in Europe 1939 scenario
3. a combination of both

All right, just checking my next turn before playing it. I am short of at least 7 Infantry Armies to hold a line.

Third airborne attacks in two turns (one Italian, two Germans). Russia has no more Air Superiority group able to perform full support. There are too much damaged and I have no PP to repair them.

Of course, I am full speed on producing Infantry Army but now with holes in my line, Panzers are destroying armies faster than I am creating them. This is easy for them, they just encircle and destroy them one by one.

Yes, I am short of Infantry Armies. No reserves. The snowball effect is starting.

GAME OVER

I am now convinced that if you are putting more reserve Infantry Armies, let's say between 5 and 10, this situation won't happen. It will be a desperate fight for 1942 but a fight to hold and to win in 1943.

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

But doing some little calculation, imagine I am withdrawing on the red dots line below. Count the number of red dots.
There are 40 red dots meaning a need for 40 armies.

In the north, between Leningrad and Moscow, I count a need of 20 armies.
To protect from the Finns, may be 5 armies.

My red dots line is on the Oka river because it is almost impossible to hold Tula in this game. And even on the Oka river, the game is ignoring all the marshes and forests east of Moscow on a line Moscow - Vladimir - Gorki.

And this is a one line defense with armies that are not good due to low experience.

This assumes that the Russians had an Army in every hex of the line. I don't think this was the case by this time in the Caucuses.