Matrix Games Forums

OK - so working as designed.

Have not tested this yet in 1.1.0.6, but in the previous beta, I had the same issue, but my fleet was about 600 strong and decided to attack a 2000 strong base in the same system - and was destroyed. Again, not sure if that still exists, but definitely was an issue with the immediately preceding beta.

Confirmed the fleet (in this case 581 strong) in manual mode decides to attack a 780 strong base.

If your fleet is set to defend the system and the setting for for the strength overmatch are not set correctly, they will attack....GP

btd64 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:50 pm If your fleet is set to defend the system and the setting for for the strength overmatch are not set correctly, they will attack....GP

I didn't change any settings, so if that is the situation in a new game, it is defaulting to "not set correctly"

Correct. For your Circumstances. When you form your fleet, carefully go through all of the fleet settings. You'll see what I mean....GP

Attack stance is neutral - "will select a range the inflicts maximum damage on the enemy while avoiding excessive damage."

They get wiped out...

What setting is recommended to avoid them getting wiped out?

BTW - I have not seen this behavior before these latest releases - but also, I have not usually had hideouts in my starting system until this release.

I can't tell you all of the settings to look at but there is an one called an "Overmatch" setting. I set mine to a high setting I believe but I don't have access to my computer so I can't check anything....GP

MorningDew wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:51 pm Attack stance is neutral - "will select a range the inflicts maximum damage on the enemy while avoiding excessive damage."

They get wiped out...

What setting is recommended to avoid them getting wiped out?

BTW - I have not seen this behavior before these latest releases - but also, I have not usually had hideouts in my starting system until this release.

Page 41 of the manual.
If you would screenshot your military policy setting, the fleet and the target that would make it very clear that this is a bug and make it impossible for people to credibly say the game works as intended.

---

This has been a problem since release. Anecdotally, I know I observed it during March and April of 2022. Corroborating accounts: there is a thread on the steam forums from 29 March 2022 saying a 64 strength fleet with overmatch of 1.5 is attacking a 700+ space monster, an article from 21 March 2022 with a mention of automated ships making suicide attacks, and a thread on the steam forums from 11 March 2022 saying a 2200 strength destroyer attacked a 2500 strength base, then another one did the same, then a fleet turned up. Account 3 is questionable (were both destroyers part of the fleet and the OP didn't notice?), however Accounts 1 and 2 are consistent with one another.

I would be highly surprised if Attack Overmatch actually worked at all.

The default setting is 1.5.

So a 600 strength fleet should not attack targets above 400 strength.

Further, an automated 600 strength fleet should never attack a target of 2000 strength. There is no policy setting to make that happen - the minimum attack overmatch is 0.5, so that fleet should not attack targets above 1200 strength.


The other part is fleet retreat setting. From memory, the default is: "Retreat when enemy strength 100% greater".

Kind of odd that drop down menu has a duplicate entry. I cannot remember which one off-hand.

Even if the 600 fleet attacks a 2000 strength station, it should IMMEDIATELY retreat (because 2000 > 1200).

Neither of the expected behaviours from these automation checks seems to be actually working.

All of what StormKiwi said. The automation / ai is just not really working according to the instructions printed on the tin.

I think we all generally are happy that the game works at all - but it is jarring sometimes, and very jarring if you're just coming to the game and discovering how far from correct these things are.

It's gonna be a great game - and has it's great aspects already - but it would go a long way to figure out things like this. Or tell us why this isn't a bug (how does this dynamic work in a way that justifies a 200 power ship taking on a 2K powered base or opponent? And not on defense, but seeking it out?

the thing about this aspect of the game not working - the "I gave you your operational parameters and you totally ignored them" rips all sense of being involved in the game away from you - you're just an observer, and your empire will do whatever the !@#$ it wants - thank you very much - which isn't a game, it's a [weird] movie...

Probably just more bugs - and hopefully they'll be addressed in time?

Erik Rutins wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:15 pm

Kotopup wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:56 pm Another weird bug. Missing weapon stats on all my ships

We've seen that blank pop-up from time to time, but haven't been able to reliably duplicate/debug it. If you figure out a way that duplicates it after a save and re-load, please let me know.

I have seen that blank UI pop-up appear pretty frequently lately. To reproduce it reliably, play the game and monitor that pop-up.

If it disappears on loading saves or restarting the game, that should give more technical people a clue as to what is causing it.

If save-reload eliminates it from the game, then it is not a problem stored at the save file level. So asking for a save is irrelevant and providing one with it is impossible.

To me, It's a UI display bug, not a game save bug. It could be RAM related. Also Graphics card related (that has RAM too right?)

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:21 am This has been a problem since release. Anecdotally, I know I observed it during March and April of 2022. Corroborating accounts: there is a thread on the steam forums from 29 March 2022 saying a 64 strength fleet with overmatch of 1.5 is attacking a 700+ space monster, an article from 21 March 2022 with a mention of automated ships making suicide attacks, and a thread on the steam forums from 11 March 2022 saying a 2200 strength destroyer attacked a 2500 strength base, then another one did the same, then a fleet turned up. Account 3 is questionable (were both destroyers part of the fleet and the OP didn't notice?), however Accounts 1 and 2 are consistent with one another.

From my testing Attack Overmatch does apply to fleet decisions, but as always in DW2 there could be some complex interactions and situations where something else is at work which makes it appear that it is not working.

The other part is fleet retreat setting. From memory, the default is: "Retreat when enemy strength 100% greater".
Kind of odd that drop down menu has a duplicate entry. I cannot remember which one off-hand.
Even if the 600 fleet attacks a 2000 strength station, it should IMMEDIATELY retreat (because 2000 > 1200).
Neither of the expected behaviours from these automation checks seems to be actually working.

I have certainly see fleets retreat according to their Retreat setting, many times. It doesn't just look at an enemy fleet, it looks at all strength at the Location.

These are both areas that were setup by Elliot and which were tested, but it sounds like we need to take another look at them and the interactions between engagement range, overmatch and retreat.

Regards,

- Erik

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:12 pm I have seen that blank UI pop-up appear pretty frequently lately. To reproduce it reliably, play the game and monitor that pop-up.
If it disappears on loading saves or restarting the game, that should give more technical people a clue as to what is causing it.
If save-reload eliminates it from the game, then it is not a problem stored at the save file level. So asking for a save is irrelevant and providing one with it is impossible.
To me, It's a UI display bug, not a game save bug. It could be RAM related. Also Graphics card related (that has RAM too right?)

Yes, we've already done that but it's impossible to duplicate on a fresh load or new game start and running for an indeterminate amount of time in debug mode hoping a UI bug reappears isn't realistically possible. Elliot and Tyler certainly have theories about what's causing it, but we haven't found the cause yet.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik Rutins wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:27 pm

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:12 pm I have seen that blank UI pop-up appear pretty frequently lately. To reproduce it reliably, play the game and monitor that pop-up.
If it disappears on loading saves or restarting the game, that should give more technical people a clue as to what is causing it.
If save-reload eliminates it from the game, then it is not a problem stored at the save file level. So asking for a save is irrelevant and providing one with it is impossible.
To me, It's a UI display bug, not a game save bug. It could be RAM related. Also Graphics card related (that has RAM too right?)

Yes, we've already done that but it's impossible to duplicate on a fresh load or new game start and running for an indeterminate amount of time in debug mode hoping a UI bug reappears isn't realistically possible. Elliot and Tyler certainly have theories about what's causing it, but we haven't found the cause yet.

Regards,

- Erik

Hmm the thought is you would be doing something else as well.
Is debug mode available in the public build?
Is the game UI still functional enough to play almost normally with debug mode?
Does debug mode create a log file?

If all of those are yes, I could give probably give it a go and upload the log?

Alternatively, if it does not duplicate on a fresh load or new game, the only feasible way I can imagine is automated testing. Run the game on full automation with a bot that selects ships, triggers that tooltip, and screenshots it.

Then run imagine recognition to check if the screenshot looks like the one in this thread.

Erik: Mordachai said it much better than I can:

"The automation / ai is just not really working according to the instructions printed on the tin.

I think we all generally are happy that the game works at all - but it is jarring sometimes, and very jarring if you're just coming to the game and discovering how far from correct these things are.

It's gonna be a great game - and has it's great aspects already - but it would go a long way to figure out things like this. Or tell us why this isn't a bug (how does this dynamic work in a way that justifies a 200 power ship taking on a 2K powered base or opponent? And not on defense, but seeking it out?

the thing about this aspect of the game not working - the "I gave you your operational parameters and you totally ignored them" rips all sense of being involved in the game away from you - you're just an observer, and your empire will do whatever the !@#$ it wants - thank you very much - which isn't a game, it's a [weird] movie...

Probably just more bugs - and hopefully they'll be addressed in time?"

Erik Rutins wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:25 pm

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:21 am This has been a problem since release. Anecdotally, I know I observed it during March and April of 2022. Corroborating accounts: there is a thread on the steam forums from 29 March 2022 saying a 64 strength fleet with overmatch of 1.5 is attacking a 700+ space monster, an article from 21 March 2022 with a mention of automated ships making suicide attacks, and a thread on the steam forums from 11 March 2022 saying a 2200 strength destroyer attacked a 2500 strength base, then another one did the same, then a fleet turned up. Account 3 is questionable (were both destroyers part of the fleet and the OP didn't notice?), however Accounts 1 and 2 are consistent with one another.

From my testing Attack Overmatch does apply to fleet decisions, but as always in DW2 there could be some complex interactions and situations where something else is at work which makes it appear that it is not working.

There's a distinction between complex, complicated and convoluted.
This system should be complicated - it should be predictable and understandable. It should not be complex - unpredictable and too difficult even for the developer to understand.

In terms of the fault tree, the undesirable state is a fleet of strength 1486 with attack overmatch 1.5 attacking a target with a strength above 990.

When a fleet of strength 1486 with attack overmatch 1.5 is attacking a target of 2079, that's a system fault, and is evidence that attack overmatch is not working.

Sure, the cause could be something else overriding the attack overmatch policy. Should it?

I have reproduced this and will provide you with a save game. The demonstration fleet repeatedly gets automatically assigned to attack a base (I say "repeatedly" because it only makes it halfway before changing mission to return to the colony). It takes about a month from the time of the save game for the first assignment to be made.

The policy settings file was deleted and regenerated. All as default, except:
Attacks - set to automated.
All three fleet settings - the automation kept shuffling ships in and out of fleets.

Tried to play it as normally as possible, but used the editor to:
obtain exploration ships to find a valid target.
spawn ships for the fleet.
increase cash to a level that the balance would not go negative.

During the first attempt, the fleet was assigned to attack the pirate outpost when it started retrofitting and its strength went to zero. So that's a "valid" assignment, at least until the retrofit continues and it stops being valid.
However, in the save-game provided, no retrofits occur.

Erik Rutins wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:25 pm

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:21 amThe other part is fleet retreat setting. From memory, the default is: "Retreat when enemy strength 100% greater".

Even if the 600 fleet attacks a 2000 strength station, it should IMMEDIATELY retreat (because 2000 > 1200).
Neither of the expected behaviours from these automation checks seems to be actually working.

I have certainly see fleets retreat according to their Retreat setting, many times. It doesn't just look at an enemy fleet, it looks at all strength at the Location.

These are both areas that were setup by Elliot and which were tested, but it sounds like we need to take another look at them and the interactions between engagement range, overmatch and retreat.

Regards,

- Erik

The fault is not when a fleet does retreat appropriately according to its retreat setting. The fault is when a fleet does not retreat appropriately according to its retreat setting. It's a false negative, not a true positive.

Unable to recreate this one.

1.1.0.6 is the best build released thus far, in my experience. Full game from start to finish and not a single crash.

Intaka wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:47 pm 1.1.0.6 is the best build released thus far, in my experience. Full game from start to finish and not a single crash.

That is a serious accomplishment and should be celebrated.

Found another bug/annoyance.
If a colony ship is damaged during construction by pirates (or i'm assuming whatever) it will run away and other ships will not colonize suitable planets automatically.

I have a save game with this if yo're interested.

edit : There's so many times i wish there was a scuttle option when there isn't one.

Kotopup wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:24 pm edit : There's so many times i wish there was a scuttle option when there isn't one.

I don't understand why there is EVER a time when we don't have this button.

Seriously?!!

A new public beta is available, please give it a try and let us know what you think!

See original post for details.

Really liking the 'Distance from Selected Item or Capital' sort option. I just wish it was an option for the 'Dangerous Locations' list. Trying to clean up all the space bugs in my boarders but all the list shows on 'Proximity' is a bunch of stuff in neighboring empires. I can clearly see the bugs on my map, but having no quick way to click the map and set up a kill order is tedious.