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Oleg Mastruko wrote: You would never manage to do that if your opponent only pulled back his CVs and placed every INF unit in Fortress Rabaul (with walls made of gold and diamonds growing on trees - why else would it be worth 2700 points? )

I haven't even glanced at the "victory" conditions as I just assumed they were silly--now I know it. There's a reason (and a good one) the Allies decided to bypass Rabaul and let it wither on the vine.

I really don't care to get into a giant argument over this point, but a simulatiuon of this kind ought to bring more to the table than examples of stupid strategy. And I think UV does offer something better with its more historical scenarios. So what I don't understand is the appeal of gamers to these outrageous scenarios. Why even attempt something which, within the larger context of the war, would reepresent stupidity? What do you learn? What have you accomplished even in the most simplistic of game terms?

Hi, It would be nice if people only commented on what they knew. (Or at least had all the facts before deciding something was silly)
Rabaul is not worth 2700 VP to the Japanese. It is worth at least 2400 VP to allies. (I think it tops out at 1200 points for the Japanese) That does not mean it cannot be bypassed. (I've never taken it and I've always had higher scores then Japanese (except for those Auto defeats that is) I only tried to take it one time (against U2 who did stay at home as much as possible after the Lunga battles) I gave up after my minesweepers failed to clear the hex. (too many long range Betty attacks)

Rabaul is a problem for the Japanese. If they don't defend it the Allies get those 2400 VP if they do the Allies score loads of points simply by bombing it as often as possible. (and capture everybase except Rabaul and Truk) The USA can build bases beyond the levels the Japanese could ever hope to. (This is the same problem the Japanese have with any base. Rabaul provides an illusion of security because it is in the rear for so many months in the long scenarios. In the scenarios where the Japanese do not capture Port Moresby Rabaul never becomes quite the fortress.

The Japanese can not play "Dig in and wait" war. Thats the certain road to defeat. The Japanese player has to keep reinventing himself throughout the campaign. You can never commit yourself to "to the death" defense. If you do get a lead in score able to withstand just the loss of every base. Just stay at Truk and send everything back to Japan.
It might look silly. But what you are saying is you never desired to obtain and retain geographical objectives. The Japanese were trying to destroy enemy fighting units. If your score is high enough to obtain victory even after losing all the bases except Truk. Then I would say you can prove to have done so.

On the points basis, Generally i have found that the USN player can equal the IJN player in points by capturing a Line from Lunga to Buna. Ofcourse the USN player can always build more and larger bases (and thus more points) with its large number of Eng units. The IJN player has a much harder time since Const battalions are always in short supply.
The USN player can opt to take Rabaul or Turk if he chooses, but its not neccessary to win a senario. On the other hand, if the IJN loses one of the above bases, he most certainly has lost. Thus, on the basis of that, high VC points for Rabaul are justified simply to make the IJN player hold it.

Mogami wrote:Hi, It would be nice if people only commented on what they knew. (Or at least had all the facts before deciding something was silly)
Rabaul is not worth 2700 VP to the Japanese. It is worth at least 2400 VP to allies.

Well of course I know that, but after the USN gets material advantage and goes into offensive, places on map are important only in as much as they are important to USN player. A base may technically be worth 0 points for Japan, but if it brings 1000 points to USN, IJN certainly cannot leave that base in March 43, no?

Main purpose of the IJN in Jan 43 and later is to DENY the USN player points he may be getting. What is currently the easiest way to deny USN points, assuming you did well up to Jan 43? That's easy - pull back your incredibly valuable ships (CVs), and put every INF unit in Rabaul - USN will have very very hard time getting to you, and if you managed to sink some of his CVs while you had the advantage, that's ~2000 points more for you...

So, after Jan 43 it really does not matter how much Rabaul or any other place brings to IJN player - what's important is that it's the only place on map (besides Truk) that shall bring victory to US if captured.

Which, IMO, is bad and unrealistic...

But, even more bad and unrealistic is how much CVs are worth in game-points terms, and I used Rabaul only to accentuate that point.

Mogami wrote: (I think it tops out at 1200 points for the Japanese) That does not mean it cannot be bypassed. (I've never taken it and I've always had higher scores then Japanese (except for those Auto defeats that is)

Well, of course, but I guess that's because you won mucho points by killing IJN CVs... or his BBs (also over-valued in game points)... or his infantry, if you played aganst opponents willing to sacrifice 2 divisions in futile defense of Lunga, PM or some other place (that, in itself, is worth only 400-some points, ie. two BBs or 1 CV).

Mogami wrote: I only tried to take it one time (against U2 who did stay at home as much as possible after the Lunga battles) I gave up after my minesweepers failed to clear the hex. (too many long range Betty attacks)

How did that game end, what CVs were sunk, and what bases you held at the end?

Mogami wrote: The Japanese can not play "Dig in and wait" war. Thats the certain road to defeat. The Japanese player has to keep reinventing himself throughout the campaign.

Hmm, you are certainly more experienced than me (where do you find the time to play so many games ) but still I'd really like to see you win the game I described above (in my reply to Warspite). Do you think the described situation is winnable for US? I can send you a savegame if you want to take a look...

I dare say we drifted a lot from the main topic of this thread. As I said, I personally have NO complaints to the way CV battles are resolved, (which is the topic of this thread), I complain only to the way CVs are rated game-point wise, which sometimes makes games ridicolous (and unrealistic). I'd love to see some other way to get 2000 points, besides taking Rabaul or sinking several CVs.

O.

Hi, Oleg sure send me the save game I'd love to take a look at it.
Against U2 I don't think too many CV were sunk in the game. (The AAR is up there somewhere. (I had plenty of CV that had to leave the map.)
Dan is a pretty quiet player. He sits and waits for an opening. Then he pounces and runs back into hiding. I expected to be hit by 40-50 Betty.
Instead I got over 100. I decided it was not worth the loss to try to take Rabaul. I just moved all the heavy bombers within range. Piled up a lot of supply for them and started bombing.


Mogami99@aol.com

Hi all,

Mogami wrote:Hi, Oleg sure send me the save game I'd love to take a look at it.
Against U2 I don't think too many CV were sunk in the game. (The AAR is up there somewhere. (I had plenty of CV that had to leave the map.)
Dan is a pretty quiet player. He sits and waits for an opening. Then he pounces and runs back into hiding. I expected to be hit by 40-50 Betty.
Instead I got over 100. I decided it was not worth the loss to try to take Rabaul. I just moved all the heavy bombers within range. Piled up a lot of supply for them and started bombing.


Mogami99@aol.com

Mogami, I am Oleg's opponent in PBEM that he surrendered.

As Oleg wrote I am very cautious and very experienced...

My lead in points as Japanese was 5000+ points by Christmas of
1942 and then the big carrier battle occurred.

Oleg lost 5 out of 6 carriers (the last one managed to limp to
nearest base very very heavily damaged). He also lost 90% of
all aircraft on his carriers.

Thus, after the big battle I was leading 8000+ points with
intact force on my side.

My fighter and bomber forces are in 90+ EXP and 99 morale. I
also have all battleships and most of cruisers as well as all carriers
(no to count destroyers and myriad of transport ships).

I also heavily developed and fortified each and every base I
had (even west of Rabaul).

And there are mines.

I heavily use mines and, for example, only in Irau there were
exactly 2850 mines laid by me in dozen minefields. Similar
situation is with other my possessions (I keep track of my
mining operations).

IMHO, Oleg surrendered rightfully...


Leo "Apollo11"

Hi, Your game closely mirrors my experiance with Admiral Dadman in our first PBEM game (we are on number two now) The AAR is up in that section. I lost my CV (and have done so in the new PBEM)
However my late 43 I passed Dadman's score and he eventually resigned. Lack of carriers was a problem. The Allies have to wait for long range fighters before they can begin to reclaim bases. However they can defend theirs and prevent the Japanese Auto victory.
I don't know if Oleg could have done the same.
If the Japanese defeat even one large scale Allied attempt to capture a base then the Japanese position is greatly improved. (It will be a long time before the Allies can try again and the lost VP can negate the first success. The Allies have to win the majority of the post CV loss surface battles. If they lose their minesweepers before they begin their offensive this also makes live difficult.