Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Paullus recalled all his sub flotillas for resupply and refit, so Atlantic (and Arctic route) are completely clear this turn.

This is an interesting development in the Battle of Atlantic. Is it more worth to conduct campaign in "waves" (refule) with entire submarine fleet withdrawn to resupply every now and then or to use them as Doenitz prefered, i.e. to maintain constant pressure on Atlantic supply lines by having one third of the submarine fleet operational, the other third on refit and the rest in training (in game terms about to be produced).

In boardgame "Advanced Third Reich" there was a German tactics to hoard U-boat points and then unleash them in one single tremendous blow against Allied economy. It showed as a sort of game killer and was eventually amended in one of the rare rule changes.


Drax

I wouldn't know about ATR, but in this particular case I think Paullus would do much better if he had left 1-2 subs in the Atlantic this turn.

In general principle attacks in waves are OK, especially when you wait to research some value, then build some subs, and then unleash them. The reason why you do that, is that you pay research costs for units that are in production queue, and on the map (you pay for their "refit and upgrade" so to say). Once you do that, you unleash a wave of "new & improved" subs (or anything else for that matter). But there are no strict rules for this, and as I said I think he'd do much better if he left some subs this turn.

O.

If you pressed the attack ports button (instead of the attack infrastructure), then your results are a bug. When you attack a port, you should only attack ships in the port. You should only target infrastructure when doing an infrastructure attack.

Well then it's a bug, I clicked on little anchor at the bottom of "combat trigger" popup screen. I reloaded the turn and checked it some more - and infrastructure attack and "port" attack produce practically the same results.

I'll repost this bug report on the beta board, in the meantime, we continue as usual.

O.

Germany - Summer 1941

Our position in the East is unchanged. We attacked the Red Army to seal off their penetration - destroying five artillery units in the process. More troops are being sent to the front to continue the offensive.

Our new and improved U-Boats once again ventured into the Atlantic, destroying or damaging all but one of the Allied transport units (and three sub flotillas have taken positions off the coast of Canada to make it that much hard to pull the supply lines back together next turn).

We are confident of our positions at the moment & hope to continue the Russian offensives shortly.

As a side note - the Allied bombing offensives against the French U-Boat pens during the war were an exercise in futility. The sub pens were hardened concrete shelters, against which even the most powerful bombing raids were useless. I believe that not a single U-boat was lost in port during the war.

ORIGINAL: paullus99

As a side note - the Allied bombing offensives against the French U-Boat pens during the war were an exercise in futility. The sub pens were hardened concrete shelters, against which even the most powerful bombing raids were useless. I believe that not a single U-boat was lost in port during the war.

From everything I have read you are correct. I wonder if they fix the current port attack bug if this will change or if Port Attacks can only hit surface ships?

Joel?

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I wouldn't know about ATR, but in this particular case I think Paullus would do much better if he had left 1-2 subs in the Atlantic this turn.

In general principle attacks in waves are OK, especially when you wait to research some value, then build some subs, and then unleash them. The reason why you do that, is that you pay research costs for units that are in production queue, and on the map (you pay for their "refit and upgrade" so to say). Once you do that, you unleash a wave of "new & improved" subs (or anything else for that matter). But there are no strict rules for this, and as I said I think he'd do much better if he left some subs this turn.

O.

Hey Paullus,

Care to explain your strategy?

My sub strategy is as follows:

Using multiple attacks by destroyers or air units, the Western Allies can pretty much annihilate any subs I leave out in the open for them to attack. By using a combination of my own air to keep England isolated & sending my subs out only when I know I can get them back to port in the same turn or the next turn, I deprive the Western Allies of targets to go after.

I will continue to build subs (at a reduced pace, as the Eastern Front takes priority) & send them out en masse to eliminate the Western Allies ability to use England as a staging area for any invasion attempts.

I should be able to keep it up for a least a year (possibly longer) - build up 12 - 15 U-boat groups & really make life interesting for the WA. It will take them some time to build up sufficient research advances to overcome my subs - and that is research they will not be able to use for their infantry or tanks (or anything else for that matter).

Of course, by 1944 they have more than enough research for everything - but with Maurice playing a brilliant Japan - it will be hard to concentrate enough firepower to get the job down on both fronts. If I can keep the Russians at bay or inflict enough losses, we should not have any trouble putting the war into overtime.

I wanted to try something different with the subs & since I need torpedoes - its better to have them in port than under constant attack - so we'll see if this strategy works.

I guess all those strategies would be very different should fog of war be on. I think it would be interesting to see an AAR with fog of war on.

As soon as we've got some more testing under our belt & move into true beta testing - you'll see some more AAR's - some with FOW on so we can test that feature too.

A lot has changed with this game just in the last month, so there are still some kinks to work out - as such, we need to be able to see everything that is going on to make sure its all moving in the same direction correctly.

ORIGINAL: paullus99


I should be able to keep it up for a least a year (possibly longer) - build up 12 - 15 U-boat groups & really make life interesting for the WA. It will take them some time to build up sufficient research advances to overcome my subs - and that is research they will not be able to use for their infantry or tanks (or anything else for that matter).

Well, if German submarines tend to dominate Atlantic, then research level of Allied units hardly matters.

Historically, Americans made mistake when they placed priority on building amphibious vessels in 1942 only to reverse this decision and put priority on ASW ships in 1943. This meant Allies had abundance of escorts in 1944 and relative lack of landing ships and craft which causes postponment of D-day for month and Anvil for three months. In addition, it killed British operations in Eastern Mediterranean and Indian Ocean.

As far as I see (very little, of course), Allied priority should be to clear Atlantic by all means available rather than tinker about quality of their armoured divisions. As Stalin would say: "Quantity has a quality of its own."


Drax

Ah! Drax, you can find me quoting those exact words in one of the first AARs on the board, and regretting them later [:D][:D]

I was Soviet Union in that game and - relying heavily on "quantity" vs. German "quality" isn't always a successful strategy.

As for this game, I invest heavily in ASW research for both LR air and DDs. I may put every other research on back-burner if needs be, but I'll research ASW with full commitment every turn. That's all I can say. In accordance with Churchill words, subs are the only thing I am afraid of in this game. [>:]

O.

So, remember this series of turns. It could be a critical moment in the game.

I think I made a mistake here. I could have attacked Kiev and *not* taken the province, and destroyed almost all of the forces there. The end result would have probably been much like it is right now on the German side, but a stronger position for the Soviets in Kharkov.

Of course, if I had done that, paullus might have sent everything into Leningrad and taken it.

The game is like a chess match, and little moves can be critical. I haven't gotten the turn yet, but holding Kharkov and Leningrad will continue to be primary goals, and I'm more than a little worried about both.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Ah! Drax, you can find me quoting those exact words in one of the first AARs on the board, and regretting them later [:D][:D]

I was Soviet Union in that game and - relying heavily on "quantity" vs. German "quality" isn't always a successful strategy.

As for this game, I invest heavily in ASW research for both LR air and DDs. I may put every other research on back-burner if needs be, but I'll research ASW with full commitment every turn. That's all I can say. In accordance with Churchill words, subs are the only thing I am afraid of in this game. [>:]

O.

My Stalin's quote was meant for Western Allied ground units. I agree that Soviets should research ground units because that's the war they are going to fight. Western Allies on the other hand are unlikely to take on the bulk of Axis ground forces in ETO until late in the game so they could afford to have less researched ground units (Shermans vs Panthers anyone) provided that they can land them in Europe in the first place (win the Battle for Atlantic).

How useful is strategic bombing of Axis controlled Europe in 1940-42 period?


Drax

Summer 1941 - Japan

not much going on for me this turn; just did some redeployments.

Soviets, Summer 1941:

No time for a full write up yet, that will have to wait for a while. Short summary: the Germans spread their units too thinly over too wide a front, and I counterattacked, retaking 4 provinces and creating threats to the German defense.

Leningrad will hold for another turn.

China, Summer 1941:

Without supply, I am stuck. Zero supply and zero factory capacity renders the Chinese useless this turn.

On Summer 1941 snapshot I noticed all-tank German force in Baltic States and similar all-tank Soviet force in Ukraine. No infantry attached.

Are there any combined arms bonuses included in land war combat mechanics? I mean, everybody here is probably aware that Germans for Barbarossa did not create one army group with nothing but panzer divisions and two army groups with nothing but infantry ones.

I sincerely do hope that there's something in the game that makes use of all-tank force equally stupid as allowing Germans to counter D-day with some sort of Sea Lion 44.


Drax

It's not "all tank" force. Certain units always appear on top of stacks in UI (tank, fighter, etc.) so if you have 8 INF and 1 Armor units in a region graphically you'll see a tank with "9" below it. To see detailed breakdown of your force you'll have to click on the region itself.

Same with fighters and air units. Fighter is always on top of stack of air units for UI purposes.

O.