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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:55 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Ok, let me clarify.
1.) My main battle fleet will stay in Phillippine and Pacific Waters. Only may massive submarine force will blockade Japan.
2.) My landing in Indo China will be in range of air units, and not until I am sufficiently prepared to do this. You are underestimating the Soviet Air Force. If you keep to your time table (which you must), you will have to commit everything.
3.) The IJN. To keep the supply lines to your troops in Russia, you will have to detail most of your destroyers. This, unless you want my submarines to send your flattops to the bottom, hampers how much you can deploy. In addition, you are on the defensive. The bulk of my plan is to get a foothold in the central Pacific, and get troops, going all the way around Aussie land, to the PI. If you don't take my airfields, then I can sink, or at least hamper your navy. You forget, You are not going to want to risk your carriers, as you won't get as many as I will. This goes in my favor. With your escorts attempting to keep the flow of goods to Siberia, your IJN can't be in the South China Sea, Central Pacific, Southern Pacific, and Northern Pacifc. In addition, I gave you a rough outline of my plan. I can attack from either avenue, or two at once.
4.) IJN Airforce. That is going to be the real tricky part. That will only hamper my French Indo China operations. Worst Case, I can't make a landing. So, I simply beef up Malay and the DEI. Doesn't matter to me, the result is the same.
The mistake you are making is that you don't see yourself committing your airforce to Russia. This is a naive thought inviting disaster. While you might knock out the Soviet AF, you still have to dig out the ground troops. The quickest way will be to bomb them. And your planes can't be dropping bombs on Soviet troops and my carriers at the same time.
My plan is all about Stalling. You are already on a 14 month time table on December 7. If you go Russia first, with luck on my part you may reduce that to an 8 month time table, by the time you're troops can go into India. Another 5 months slogging through Malay, India, and China, that leaves you just three months to grab the DEI and PI. That is 11 months, from Dec. 41, so this is November '42. By now, I can stick so many troops in the PI, I can hold you there for 4, and defacto, you're industry is broke. Not to mention, your fleet train is so badly damaged that if it is getting resources to Japn to restart the industry, then it can't be taking positions I hold in the SoPac and CentPac theaters. This means from a standard game, you have advanced my invasion time table by a year.
To say my plan is not feasible, is to furth criticize you're own plan. I actually messed with WitP checking things, and seeing how feasible it would be. I didn't just say "Hey, what if I did this."
The soviet air force consists of obsolete planes that are easily shot down. The japanese air forces in china, manhcuko and the home islands are easily up to the task of knocking them out of the sky. You overestimate the Russian troops, they aren't that difficult to beat. I don't want to have ships in the southern pacific or central pacific, I already said I was abandoning the central pacific. If by the southern pacific you mean new caledonia, fiji, and american samoa, I won't be there either. How is it that the submarine forces of the allies suddenly perform so much better than they did historically just because I invaded Russia? If you can interdict supply ships heading from the home islands to russia, then you can interdict japanese supply ships headed anywhere and you could just starve out all japanese forces. If you put submarines that close to the home islands they won't be there long.
Hirohito
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:01 am
by Tankerace
I too am begining to suspect you either 1) don't own or 2) don't play Witp.
On submarines, It is this simple. As Japan, every transport is vital. And, if I put enough boats there, I can surely nail some.
Also, if you played WitP, you would know that submarines can operate off the home islands early in the war with relative impunity. Only in 1943, when Japan develops better ASW, does it become difficult. In my current game, I have 25 US, 5 Dutch, and 3 British submarines from Shanghai to Etorufu. My only sub loss was a Dutch boat off Khota Baru, in Malay. They have been on station for roughly a week now. They have netted 3 ships, for no loss. In addition, I am laying mines at various choke points, sure to nail some more.
My advice, play a game of witp, and then make suggestions on tactics.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:02 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: madflava13
Hirohito,
I'll state the obvious - You must not own the game. If you do, it's dusty.
I'm sorry, but attacking Russia and not the DEI is wrong. Please play me in a PBEM game. Name any terms you want, but attack Russia first. I'll have subs and B-17s causing you problems within the second week of the war. It just won't work for you otherwise.
Someone else used this excuse before. yes, I own the game. No, it is not dusty. I fail to see what owning the game has to do with discussing a war strategy, unless the game does not reflect reality at all. PI didn't fall in the second week of the war in the original japanese strategy and B-17s and subs didn't cause the empire major problems. Why will this change so drastically because japanese forces are on the move in Russia? Even if I invade PI on turn one I won't have conquered it by the second week of the war, so won't your subs and B-17s cause me problems then? I just don't get your reasoning. How many B-17s are you talking about? And what do you think the japanese air force is doing while you are sending them into empire air space?
Hirohito
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:11 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
I too am begining to suspect you either 1) don't own or 2) don't play Witp.
On submarines, It is this simple. As Japan, every transport is vital. And, if I put enough boats there, I can surely nail some.
Also, if you played WitP, you would know that submarines can operate off the home islands early in the war with relative impunity. Only in 1943, when Japan develops better ASW, does it become difficult. In my current game, I have 25 US, 5 Dutch, and 3 British submarines from Shanghai to Etorufu. My only sub loss was a Dutch boat off Khota Baru, in Malay. They have been on station for roughly a week now. They have netted 3 ships, for no loss. In addition, I am laying mines at various choke points, sure to nail some more.
My advice, play a game of witp, and then make suggestions on tactics.
I am not making suggestions on tactics, the stated purpose of this forum is to discuss strategy. I am discussing strategy. The argument you pose, that my strategy wont work because your submarines will sink all my transports can be used no matter what strategy is suggested. I just don't get your argument. No matter what strategy I came up with you could use this argument, unless the strategy was to put the entire fleet into dry dock and just sit in japan waiting for the inevitable.
If you think that submarines can operate with impunity in the shallow waters off the home islands then youhaven't played an opponent who knew how to conduct ASW operations.
What choke points are you going to send mine layers to that will hamper the Russia first strategy? Sea of Japan? South China Sea? What do you think IJN and the japanese air force will be doing while your mine layers sail into these waters?
again, you can make this argument nomatter what strategy is adopted. Even if I invade PI, DEI, and Malaya on turn 1 you can still mine choke points and deploy your submarines and send your B-17s. I fail to see how they will perform so differently than they did historically as to totally ruin the Russia first strategy.
I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever played WITP.
Hirohito
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:17 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
You ever tried land combat in Witp Hirohito? It would take a month or two just to march your troops where they need to go, let alone the battle, quelling resistance, defending, and then marching them back. That is about a 4 month operation at least, looking closer to 6 or 7 months.
You are flat wrong. Obviously you have never tried a land battle in WITP. You can move your troops into position to attack russia in less than two months.
I have used this strategy against other players. The key is that they don't know it is coming. For turn after turn nothing happens on the japanese side. Then one day there is a three pronged attack aimed at the Russian forces which slices them into three isolated groups which are then cut off from supplies. Each is annhilated in turn. Doesn't take four months or six.
It wouldn't take you that long to try it out for yourself and see.
Hirohito
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:32 am
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
IF you preposition your troops properly you can slice up the Russians and dispose of them slice by slice. It should be over in a month or two.
Hirohito
It will take a month or two to destory each pocket. Of course, I fail to understand why the Allied player won't attempt to breakout of these pockets.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:34 am
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Also, if you played WitP, you would know that submarines can operate off the home islands early in the war with relative impunity. Only in 1943, when Japan develops better ASW, does it become difficult. In my current game, I have 25 US, 5 Dutch, and 3 British submarines from Shanghai to Etorufu. My only sub loss was a Dutch boat off Khota Baru, in Malay. They have been on station for roughly a week now. They have netted 3 ships, for no loss. In addition, I am laying mines at various choke points, sure to nail some more.
This is not exactly true. The four depth charge DDs are fine for sinking submarines. Station about ten of them in Japan and put them out on patrols.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:42 am
by madflava13
Hirohito,
I'm not a Witp expert - let's play a game. You and me, PBEM. We'll post results on the forum. You choose the settings. I'll be the allies, you IJN. If I am wrong, so be it.
I've got the time....
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:43 am
by 2ndACR
You are still 2 months behind schedule before you even get you forces to Manchuria.
Please play someone here and post the AAR. WITP_Dude already played your first startegy, when you would not. So lets see it.
Heck I have never even played as the Allies and I will take you on.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:18 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
IF you preposition your troops properly you can slice up the Russians and dispose of them slice by slice. It should be over in a month or two.
Hirohito
This has not been my experience. Break out to where? There is no where to go,and no way to get supplies, the Russian troops are too far apart to support each other. The Japanese player can just retreat until the pocket currently under attack is destroyed and then turn to face the "break out" units. These troops won't have supplies, if they leave their bases how long will they last?
What do you base your statement that it will take a month to eliminate each pocket on? Have you fought battles of encirclement against isolated units before?
Hirohito
It will take a month or two to destory each pocket. Of course, I fail to understand why the Allied player won't attempt to breakout of these pockets.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:28 am
by WiTP_Dude
This has not been my experience. Break out to where? There is no where to go,and no way to get supplies, the Russian troops are too far apart to support each other. The Japanese player can just retreat until the pocket currently under attack is destroyed and then turn to face the "break out" units. These troops won't have supplies, if they leave their bases how long will they last?
What do you base your statement that it will take a month to eliminate each pocket on? Have you fought battles of encirclement against isolated units before?
Hirohito
What "experience" do you have? What are your opponents names and email addresses? Seriously.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:37 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
This has not been my experience. Break out to where? There is no where to go,and no way to get supplies, the Russian troops are too far apart to support each other. The Japanese player can just retreat until the pocket currently under attack is destroyed and then turn to face the "break out" units. These troops won't have supplies, if they leave their bases how long will they last?
What do you base your statement that it will take a month to eliminate each pocket on? Have you fought battles of encirclement against isolated units before?
Hirohito
What "experience" do you have? What are your opponents names and email addresses? Seriously.
we dont' play via email. they live near me. we have a war gaming club and get together.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:41 am
by Hirohito
ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
This has not been my experience. Break out to where? There is no where to go,and no way to get supplies, the Russian troops are too far apart to support each other. The Japanese player can just retreat until the pocket currently under attack is destroyed and then turn to face the "break out" units. These troops won't have supplies, if they leave their bases how long will they last?
What do you base your statement that it will take a month to eliminate each pocket on? Have you fought battles of encirclement against isolated units before?
Hirohito
What "experience" do you have? What are your opponents names and email addresses? Seriously.
What "experience" do you have? This constant belittlement because I want to discuss strategies in a forum that is for the purpose of discussing strategies is very tiresome.
I am sick of being belittled, I won't be back.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:50 am
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
we dont' play via email. they live near me. we have a war gaming club and get together.
So you play hotseat? How many hours per week?
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:51 am
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
What "experience" do you have? This constant belittlement because I want to discuss strategies in a forum that is for the purpose of discussing strategies is very tiresome.
I am sick of being belittled, I won't be back.
Look in the AAR section.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:01 am
by Raverdave
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
One of the Betas attacked the Russians in a test. He did not go for victory, just to see what would happen. He got spanked bad.
Yeah and in a Beta game between Luskan and myself as Allies, the Rooshans auto-activated which caused Luskan all sorts of heartache. The Rooshans are not the push-overs that people here seem to think that they are.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:12 pm
by moses
It looks to me that the plan might work. Russia seems beatable in the game and taking them out would then free troops to topple china, indonesia, and India like dominoes. The carriers and minimal forces can keep the US in check. WITP Dude vs Zeta showed that certain conquests can be delayed for a while without devestating effect.
But Hirohito be serious. The operation was obviously impossible in reality. In Jan in that area of the world your lucky just to survive much less attack anyone. This isn't france 1940. These are primarily infantry armies fighting as in WW1 from fortified positions. Its going to be a bloody slugging match. Perhaps Japan could have won but it would have taken more than a couple months and they would suffered very heavy casualties.
Then the shift to China which is easy in the game is far more difficult in practice. You can't just tell everyone to march south. It requires huge amounts of planning and support. Then defeating China quickly. Not going to happen. You might do it eventually but not nearly as fast as is possible in game.
The further shift to India is so bizare that I won't even continue.
You don't need to be a General to see that this is obviously impossible. Anyone with any real knowledge of ground combat operations will sufice.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:33 pm
by Raverdave
I once again call on Hirohito to play one of his strategies against me in a PBEM and allow me to post the AAR. Yes I enjoy reading what you post but your refusal to actually "game" your ideas erodes your creditability.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:05 pm
by ctid98
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
Your plan makes no sense, unless you like using your navy assets for target practice.
Hirohito
And we're the un-enlightened ones, unwilling to embrace new ideas, quick to put them down.......
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:07 pm
by ctid98
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
I have tried this strategy against other players, I didn't come here to find opponents, I came here to discuss this strategy.
Hirohito
Indeed you have come here to discuss strategy, so perhaps some of your 'opponents' could join in the discussion and let us all know how well you or they got on with these strategies that you've employed so well.........