Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Zeta it has to be a bug. Because under correct operation of the program you can lose a plane and not a pilot but you can't lose a pilot without also losing a plane. (Unless the other pilots are eating them)

I think that is what is happing, but since it has been upgradeed so many times there is nothing that can be done. Oh well it could be worse and I am could be the Japanese in that game.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

Yep this is what we are saying.

Another example:

1. Load up South Pacific Scenario as Japan.

2. Turn 1 Allow Replacements for airgroups..

3. Turn 2 Turn off Replacements and set missions for airgroups.

4. Turn 3 watch your airgroups with more planes than pilots sit on there butts...

Hi, Why on earth would you draw aircraft and then not also draw pilots?
If you know before you draw the aircraft you are not going to draw pilots as well why draw the aircraft?[X(]

Japanese CV groups 1/30/43 (every ac including the reserves have pilots)

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Japanese CV groups 1/30/43 (every ac including the reserves have pilots)

Nice!

BTW, this was done using your "pilot training method"?

I am using similar method (which I devised in good old UV days long long time ago)... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Japanese CV groups 1/30/43 (every ac including the reserves have pilots)

Nice!

BTW, this was done using your "pilot training method"?

I am using similar method (which I devised in good old UV days long long time ago)... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

It is certainly beautiful to behold ... but ... I must ask ... what has his opponent been doing !? !? Must be on a looooooooong ... vacation !

Hi, Yes using the training method.
Here is a group that in the combat phase of this turn lost 27 aircraft in A2A.
Because the action was over my airfield I ended up with more pilots then AC.
So I dumped some training groups in so now it has excess pilots (2) and will draw replacement ac this turn. All the pilots are trained. (to at least 50)
If I had simply requested more ac I would have had to draw untrained pilots. As is the group will be ready for combat within a week of losing 3/4 of it's aircraft in 1 day.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Japanese CV groups 1/30/43 (every ac including the reserves have pilots)

Nice!

BTW, this was done using your "pilot training method"?

I am using similar method (which I devised in good old UV days long long time ago)... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

It is certainly beautiful to behold ... but ... I must ask ... what has his opponent been doing !? !? Must be on a looooooooong ... vacation !

Hi, Not counting destroyed on ground Japan has lost 2815 aircraft (A2A+AA+Ops) I've trained a lot of pilots.
Brady controls all of NG and the Solomons except for a few isolated Japanese bases. I just don't let my airforces get caught in meat grinders or by naval bombardment groups.
(Although I was chewed up over Hanoi last turn)

Hi all,

BTW, "Mogami", you still use the "No Fly" training method (i.e. training squadrons that actualy do not fly - they have "training" set to 0% and instead they relay on it's leader's "Skill" value to increase the EXP each turn)?


Leo "Apollo11"

Well here I am in 7/23/42 ... not as bad as I might have thought ... but I did get caught in meat grinder at Soerabaja ... not anticipating strength of Dutch flak with all units concentrated into one hex and time to fill up bofors slots.

But to me the only point I'm trying to make is the "do not fly" bug was created by the 1.5 patch which added the ability to accept replacement planes without pilots and exposing ( perhaps ) the do not fly bug. "get pilot" might have been wanted by some ( not I ) .. but it added new problem .. of "do not fly" ... so my vote is either roll back ... or add "get plane" to compensate.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well here I am in 7/23/42 ... not as bad as I might have thought ... but I did get caught in meat grinder at Soerabaja ... not anticipating strength of Dutch flak with all units concentrated into one hex and time to fill up bofors slots.

But to me the only point I'm trying to make is the "do not fly" bug was created by the 1.5 patch which added the ability to accept replacement planes without pilots and exposing ( perhaps ) the do not fly bug. "get pilot" might have been wanted by some ( not I ) .. but it added new problem .. of "do not fly" ... so my vote is either roll back ... or add "get plane" to compensate.

I just got idea (don't know if it would work though)!

What if you downgrade and then upgrade your squadron that has access pilots but too few planes?

That way all planes would fill up (I think/hope)... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

Adding planes is no problem .. just hit "accept replacements" ... then you fill up with planes .. but then you have too few pilots .. and so your planes .. none of them in that group .. will fly ever period ...

So then you have to get some pilots ... and you can either dump a training group in ... or press the "get pilot" boo-tawn and add "garbage" pilots ... before 1.5 you did not press "accept replacements" because you automatically got pilots ... but not much has changed ... because now if you press "accept replacements" .. you get planes .. but you will not fly without pilots ... not even the planes with pilots will fly .. like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

That is why I say either go back to pre 1.5 ( remove get pilot bootawn ) or .. add new "get plane" button so you can add individual planes to get exactly the right number without getting too many.

Hi, The get pilot button added nothing. Only before when you drew aircraft you also drew pilots. So you never saw the "no fly" You could not draw aircraft and not get a pilot unless you already had more pilots then aircraft. (Before pilots would only be drawn by "ready" aircraft )and often you had to set groups to fly in order to get pilots. So the problem before get pilot was worse then it is now because I still can't understand why you would draw aircraft and not also draw pilots. I have never in 11 PBEM games had a group not fly because it was short a pilot.

Apollo no the group is just resting at 0 percent training while it waits to draw the replacement AC (so it can recover morale and rest) Once it has rested and recovered it will move back to combat. It does not require training as all pilots in the group are above what they can train to.
You will notice some of the CV groups are training. That is because there are a few sub 55exp pilots in the groups. (You can't avoid it) The Junyo and Hiyo for example arrive with understrength groups so to get them operational I had to add from my replacements
However a few of the pilots were only 52,53,54 not 55 so the groups are training. It is difficult now to add pilots in the 70's to my CV groups. (I have around 12 70+ fighter pilots left in training groups reserved for CV groups) There are no more Kate or Val pilots above 55 but I do have quite a number of 55's trained for all CV groups.
I have many sub 50 groups training. (many are now in the high 40's) (when I draw a pilot he comes in between 19-28 depending on how many I draw and how long since last draw.
I like to save at least 1 trained pilot for each group I assign to training so I hold groups till I have 1 trained pilot in the pool. (I only hold 1 group back per month)
If I have 3 trained pilots I tell 3 groups to take ac and then I draw 1 pilot to each before drawing the rest. This way they all get a 70+ pilot (good pilots help train the groups)

I think we always had the "no fly" problem just now people are blaming it on the "get pilot" button. Before you had to set a group to fly 100 percent to draw pilots. Now if you tell a group to draw AC just draw them the next turn.


IF YOU DON"T WANT UNTRAINED PILOTS DON"T DRAW AC. Instead transfer trained pilots to the group they bring their own AC.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Adding planes is no problem .. just hit "accept replacements" ... then you fill up with planes .. but then you have too few pilots .. and so your planes .. none of them in that group .. will fly ever period ...

So then you have to get some pilots ... and you can either dump a training group in ... or press the "get pilot" boo-tawn and add "garbage" pilots ... before 1.5 you did not press "accept replacements" because you automatically got pilots ... but not much has changed ... because now if you press "accept replacements" .. you get planes .. but you will not fly without pilots ... not even the planes with pilots will fly .. like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

That is why I say either go back to pre 1.5 ( remove get pilot bootawn ) or .. add new "get plane" button so you can add individual planes to get exactly the right number without getting too many.

Wait now... hmmm...

So your problem is that you have Japanese squadron full of aircraft but you are lacking pilots?

Since you don't want to use poorly EXP pilots from pilot pool (by "Get Pilot" button) why don't you simply use what "Mogami" wrote - dump on map trained partial squadron into your existing squadrons!


If you, let's say, have "Betty" bomber IJN squadron:
- 27 aircraft
- 20 pilots

They don't fly because you are lacking pilots (and you don't want to use "Get Pilot" button) - simply dump trained partial squadron in your existing one:
- 9 aircraft
- 9 pilots

Therefore you would get:
- 36 aircraft (access yess - but this can be usefull)
- 29 pilots


Leo "Apollo11"

Hi, It's simpler then that Apollo. He has 27 AC and 20 pilots because he drew ac into a group with 20 ac and 20 pilots. If he just sent 9 pilots (with AC) he would have had a group with 29ac and 29 trained pilots. Simple.
(36 ac and 29 pilots would still be the same problem as before. You want the excess always to be in pilots not ac)

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It's simpler then that Apollo. He has 27 AC and 20 pilots because he drew ac into a group with 20 ac and 20 pilots. If he just sent 9 pilots (with AC) he would have had a group with 29ac and 29 trained pilots. Simple.
(36 ac and 29 pilots would still be the same problem as before. You want the excess always to be in pilots not ac)

Ahh yes... though I would expect that two access aircraft (27 + 2 = 29) would go in reserve and enable flying for squadron (i.e. that problem only exists if number of aircraft is less than full complement)... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
BTW, "Mogami" can you please answer my question about "No Flying" training from above?

Hello...

I have not experienced this. The only similar complaint I have heard was that 27 planes/20 pilots used 27 planes worth of supply, instead of 20. I fixed that. If 27 planes/20 pilots is causing no flights at all, it is a new bug to me. If that is the case, please report and send save to Mr. Frag.

Thanks...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
... like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

P.S. [Edit]
BTW, "Mogami" can you please answer my question about "No Flying" training from above?

Hi, I did. In the above.

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I have not experienced this. The only similar complaint I have heard was that 27 planes/20 pilots used 27 planes worth of supply, instead of 20. I fixed that. If 27 planes/20 pilots is causing no flights at all, it is a new bug to me. If that is the case, please report and send save to Mr. Frag.

Thanks...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
... like if you have 27 planes and 20 pilots ... nobody flys ... that is the problem.

Not absolutely sure of all circumstances ... may only apply to Japanese side .. and then only some planes types ... certainly the complaints I've heard / seen regarding this since 1.5 came out have all been from Japanese players.

Ok, I'll stop one of my games and try to build a repeatable test for this ( if one of my oppoents will volunteer to halt our game ! ).

Hi all,

Thanks "Mogami"!

BTW, I wonder if there ever was empirical test to see which squadron trains to MAX possible training level first...


TEST setup

2 squadrons each with 27x 30 EXP pilots and same rated Air leader

#1
First squadron is set to "Training" 0% and gains EXP just from it's Air leader

#2
Second squadron is set to "Training" >0% (i.e. they actually fly and can suffer from OP losses resulting in pilot and/or aircraft losses) and gains EXP from both actual flying and it's Air leader


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
For me personally #1 method seems "artificial".

Hi, Brady just sent me a new turn. I'll post my training levels here in a few minutes.

OK here the "Top" of my land based combat aircraft. (transports and recon and floatplanes not included in totals.
Next I'll post the bottom (the training groups)