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RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:21 pm
by testarossa
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Does anyone know for sure what the Russian mine/torpedo capability/potential was? I've seen IL-2s in the IL-2 STURMOVIK that carry Torps, but I think that may have been a special variant.
They used Il-4 for torpedo attacks and mining. Il-4 used two torpedoes (don't remember exact names, will check after work). Low altitude and high altitude variants (this one was launched from 600-1800 m and than ran in circles in hope to hit something). Later they modified all high altitude launched ones into low altitude due to poor performance of the former. Il-4 was very unstable on the low-level torpedo runs, and had no automatics (very tiring to fly) so result were mixed.
Later they got A-20 through lend-lease, and used them for torpedo attacks. Another lend lease a/c used by Naval aviation was B-25, but i think they didn't carried torpedo. Catalinas were used on Northern Fleet by they carried no torpedoes to increase endurance. They modified Il-2 for torpedo attacks by removing cannons and some of the armour, still performance was low and numbers built were few. They achieved much better results with standard Il-2M3. Theoretically Tu-2 was able to carry torpedo but was never used as such.
Organizationally they were formed in "minno-torpedniy avia-polk" mine-torpedo air regiments of Soviet Navy. Most active of course were regiments of the Northern fleet 1941-1945, Baltic fleet 1944-1945, and Black sea fleet 1941-1944. Again without my book I cant give you exact composition in the Far East, but if memory serves me well, Soviet Union had 1 or 2 of those regiments attached to Pacific Fleet. Overall Soviets expended around 1000 air-launched torpedoes during the war, and Far East Command had something like 60 of them during the course of WW2.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:27 pm
by Subchaser
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Does anyone know for sure what the Russian mine/torpedo capability/potential was?
Principle soviet naval aviation attack unit was MTAP – mine/torpedo aviation regiment, all naval planes were capable to carry mines, there were 7 aviation mine types in Soviet arsenal, biggest was AMD-1-1000, 1000kg, mine was considered important weapon… as important as torpedo. The problem is that Soviet naval aviation is not modeled in the game… as well as soviet navy, soviet coastal defenses (Vladivostok alone had 122 coastal guns including dozen of 12” naval guns) fortified areas etc.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:28 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: testarossa
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Does anyone know for sure what the Russian mine/torpedo capability/potential was? I've seen IL-2s in the IL-2 STURMOVIK that carry Torps, but I think that may have been a special variant.
They used Il-4 for torpedo attacks and mining. Il-4 used two torpedoes (don't remember exact names, will check after work). Low altitude and high altitude variants (this one was launched from 600-1800 m and than ran in circles in hope to hit something). Later they modified all high altitude launched ones into low altitude due to poor performance of the former. Il-4 was very unstable on the low-level torpedo runs, and had no automatics (very tiring to fly) so result were mixed.
Later they got A-20 through lend-lease, and used them for torpedo attacks. Another lend lease a/c used by Naval aviation was B-25, but i think they didn't carried torpedo. Catalinas were used on Northern Fleet by they carried no torpedoes to increase endurance. They modified Il-2 for torpedo attacks by removing cannons and some of the armour, still performance was low and numbers built were few. They achieved much better results with standard Il-2M3. Theoretically Tu-2 was able to carry torpedo but was never used as such.
Organizationally they were formed in "minno-torpedniy avia-polk" mine-torpedo air regiments of Soviet Navy. Most active of course were regiments of the Northern fleet 1941-1945, Baltic fleet 1944-1945, and Black sea fleet 1941-1944. Again without my book I cant give you exact composition in the Far East, but if memory serves me well, Soviet Union had 1 or 2 of those regiments attached to Pacific Fleet. Overall Soviets expended around 1000 air-launched torpedoes during the war, and Far East Command had something like 60 of them during the course of WW2.
Wow , Great stuff Testarossa. I just knew they had it in them! Seems I am right about the oversight. I have PM'd Don Bowen about this and we might one day in the future see this in CHS. This post will go a long way toward that. Now if we can only get A/C to mine their own harbors...
BTW I am at work and can't check the database. Do the Tu-2 and IL-4 list the torp as a potential weapon in WitP?
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:38 pm
by TheElf
I have posted these Soviet Navy/mine deficiencies on the NEW CHS Wishlist thread in the Scenario Design Forum. Check it out and feel free to post suggestions for future CHS inclusion
tm.asp?m=906117
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:52 pm
by Nikademus
it doesn't sound like Far East command had all that many torpedoes to expend.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:01 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
it doesn't sound like Far East command had all that many torpedoes to expend.
The Question is...Would they have if they had gone to war with Japan in 1941???
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:04 pm
by castor troy
To get back to my mine thread, with that "little" effect the Japanese mines have (is it historically true?) do I more than scratch the paint on Allied ships?
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:09 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: TheElf
The Question is...Would they have if they had gone to war with Japan in 1941???
Unequivibly no IMO. Always been my viewpoint. Stalin was a ruthless pig, but he wasn't stupid. Assuming a historical German invasion, no way he would have moved against Japan while the German threat remained on Russian soil.
Historically of course neither would Japan have attacked Russia but players are free to do as they wish. This of course leads to the argument about Russian reinforcements....though I doubt anyone would ever be able to agree on what (if any) would be sent while the German threat remains. I think that if it came down to it.....Stalin would sacrifice the Maritime province as long as the Ural factories were not threatened. There would always be time later to settle old scores after Hitler was defeated.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:15 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: castor troy
To get back to my mine thread, with that "little" effect the Japanese mines have (is it historically true?) do I more than scratch the paint on Allied ships?
Well, apparently at least the type 3 is accurate as to the explosive charge in the "warhead". Game doesn't model that they are self-sinking, though, so the aerial mines are over-rated if anything.
I can't recall any major Allied warships being sunk by mines. I think a couple of subs were lost to them, and i know some MSWs were, and probably DDs. I can recall some ALLIED ships being sunk by ALLIED mines (large transports, etc.)
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:23 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: castor troy
To get back to my mine thread, with that "little" effect the Japanese mines have (is it historically true?) do I more than scratch the paint on Allied ships?
Sorry Castor,
Moved this discussion to a new thread... Waiting for Nik to respond there...
tm.asp?m=906181