Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Big B


Just ONE of the MANY reasons you don't want to loose a war...[;)]

B

Hi Big B, Only problem with that is that the same morally neutral, Machiavellian, logic can be applied to Hitler. Hitler should want to win a war so he can write the history books and his enemies can't. Certainly gives equal emphasis to those clearly in the wrong to fight to the bitter end just so they can write themselves into the history books as the "good guys". Where's the incentive to even consider peace? If you're strong and you know you can win, why not fight and then rewrite the history books? It seems to me that the duty of humanity is to establish objectivity in history, which occasionally means facing uncomfortable facts and doing something about them instead of trying to write apologetics for them. If there are no (revisionary) rewards for being the bad guy then perhaps there will be fewer bad guys. [8|]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Oh yah, and as for saving Private Ryan,...entertaining certainly, realistic in some ways - absolutely stupid in others, but the wierd feeling I walked away with from that movie was that I had just seen a WWII propaganda movie whose over powering message was "Never Trust a German".
I mean, I thought that was what Spielberg was trying to say with the whole deal at the end of Upham 'coming to his senses' and wasting the former German prisoner he was instrumental in saving earlier in the film....I don't know - it just seemed out of time and place for a film today.

You put it better than I did Big B. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Big B


Just ONE of the MANY reasons you don't want to loose a war...[;)]

B

Hi Big B, Only problem with that is that the same morally neutral, Machiavellian, logic can be applied to Hitler. Hitler should want to win a war so he can write the history books and his enemies can't. Certainly gives equal emphasis to those clearly in the wrong to fight to the bitter end just so they can write themselves into the history books as the "good guys". Where's the incentive to even consider peace? If you're strong and you know you can win, why not fight and then rewrite the history books? It seems to me that the duty of humanity is to establish objectivity in history, which occasionally means facing uncomfortable facts and doing something about them instead of trying to write apologetics for them. If there are no (revisionary) rewards for being the bad guy then perhaps there will be fewer bad guys. [8|]

Hi Gary,

Yes it was totally Machiavellian - and was meant to be...as half a joke. [;)]
I have tried to make it my policy to never get political in any way on this forum - and I'm not going to stray too far from that...but -

Hmm, I just want to say that the longer one lives...the more one's perspective changes as things unfold before your eyes. Suffice to say I wish the world were different.

B

Wob -

I also liked the Band of Brothers series but also found it biased/hollywoodish at times.

A well done series nonetheless and it was great to follow 1 bunch of guys through several hours.

Also, I think I heard somewhere that they are making a series on the Marines. Anyone else confirm or deny this?

Steven

ORIGINAL: marky
they were only up against 2 tanks and maybe a platoon of infantry

IIRC the sniper character on lookout on the church tower reports 8 tanks and 100+ infantry. Anyway, the first 20 minutes are the best I've seen so far in a war movie, the rest of the film is the typical Hollywood stuff... Oh, and I HATED the 'Thin Red Line'.

Erm, My top three are "The Longest Day", "A Bridge Too Far" and "Tora! Tora! Tora!". In all three cases I like the view from 'the other side of the hill'. "Battle of the River Plate", "Hunt the Bismark" and "The Cruel Sea" are right up there too. "Saving Private Ryan" is one of the better recent ones, but "We Were Soldiers" is better still. (Aside: It's also a better book, made wonderful reading in fact.)

I admit I'd really love to see a film biography of Norman Schwarzkopf. His biography (It Doesn't Take a Hero") is pretty darn good, as is Colin Powell's book.

I'd love to see a film version of "Hitler's War on Russia", Paul Carrell's historical work. Similar in it's all-ranks, both sides treatment to Ryan's books, but (obviously) a wider scale.

Steve.

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix
I'd love to see a film version of "Hitler's War on Russia", Paul Carrell's historical work. Similar in it's all-ranks, both sides treatment to Ryan's books, but (obviously) a wider scale.
Steve.

'Historical' work of Paul Carell alias Paul Karl Schmidt, the boss of the press office in Ribbentrop's Foreign Ministry and thus partly responsible for Nazi propaganda? Granted, he has a quite readable writing-style with his frequent use of the 'trooper' or grassroots perspective, but he tries to legitimate the necessity of the war against the USSR (the infamous 'preventive war' thesis) and to maintain the picture of the 'clean' Wehrmacht. This perception matched popular opinion in the 1960s, that's why his books became popular, but nowadays his works are considered controversial at best.

All historians have their own version - witness Liddell Hart! [;)]

I'm not saying that Carell was right, I'm not convinced anyone would really contend that. I am saying that he wrote good, readable histories of broad scope and from many points of view, high and low and from both sides of the hill. Impartial? No. Could they be made into great films, or perhaps even better, miniseries? I think so. YMMV of course!

Steve.

Yes, matter of opinion and I don't want to split too many hairs over this, I'm just wondering what kind of film would result if it was based on the non-impartial views of a Nazi apologist. Yes, the film might show "many points of view, high and low and from both sides of the hill", which is right and good in principle if properly used, but Carell used it rather selectively and a film based (only) on his work would most likely factor out the gory details (war of aggression, atrocities) Carell was trying to deny, too. If looking for a base for a film on the Eastern Front, there are certainly better books to draw inspiration from.

Don't think any film based on Paul Carrell's work would be well received. He's very readable, but also VERY lopsided in his views.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Wob -

I also liked the Band of Brothers series but also found it biased/hollywoodish at times.

A well done series nonetheless and it was great to follow 1 bunch of guys through several hours.

Also, I think I heard somewhere that they are making a series on the Marines. Anyone else confirm or deny this?

Steven

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374463/

"The Pacific War"

I think they said there filming it this year, for realease sometime in 2006, cant wait, Band of Brothers is the best Tv mini series, and war "Movie" ive ever seen.

I like Kelly's Heroes. That was so funny when Carrol O'conner didn't give a damn about what his weather man was trying to explain why he couldn't get a clear reception on the radio. I wish I could remember the exact words. I'm laughing now jsut thinking about that scene. And remember when they were at a stalemate with that German tank? "Let's make a deal. What kind of deal? A Deal, Deal!" LOL [:D]

Thanks Little Joe

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I like Kelly's Heroes. That was so funny when Carrol O'conner didn't give a damn about what his weather man was trying to explain why he couldn't get a clear reception on the radio. I wish I could remember the exact words. I'm laughing now jsut thinking about that scene.

"The ionosphere? Tell the ionosphere to get the hell off my frequency!"
(or something very close)

And remember when they were at a stalemate with that German tank? "Let's make a deal. What kind of deal? A Deal, Deal!"

" . . . maybe the guy's a Republican."

Woof, Woof -- that's my other dog impersonation.

My favorite Kellys Heroes quote (and former sig): "Negative waves Moriarity, always with the negative waves. Can't you for once have a positive and righteous thought."

No, I have to agree with your first statement 11acr. "I just ride 'em, I dont know what makes 'em work" has got to be the best line from that movie. But there are so many.

(BTW I was attached to the 11th ACR in Fulda in '77 for a few weeks)

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

All historians have their own version - witness Liddell Hart! [;)]

...

Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?[X(]

B

My top 3 are "Twelve O'Clock High", "Tora Tora Tora", and "Gettysburg." "Blackhawk Down" was very good. "Sink the Bismarck" was also pretty good if somewhat inaccurate. I like war movies that focus on the human element, not just bombs and bullets.

"Twelve O'Clock High" was the best of the three. Watching Gregory Peck move from a hard-assed officer to one who begins to care too much for his men and finally has a nervous breakdown.

One of the best Cold War movies I ever saw was "The Bedford Incident" with Sidney Poitier, Richard Widmark, Wally Cox and James MacArthur. The last scene in the movie is supeerb. MacArthur is the overeager, inept junior Weapons Officer, Widmark as the skipper and Poitier as a news correspondent. They are on a US destroyer chasing a Soviet diesel submarine near Greenland and Widmark wants to force him to surface. Unfortunately they end up ramming it with a glancing blow and Poitier is in Widmark's face demanding to know what Widmark will do if the Soviet sub fires a torpedo because of the ramming. Widmark replies, "If he fires one. I'll fire one!" MacArthur yells, "Fire one!" and launches an ASROC. Pretty soon a loud explosion is heard from the sub and everyone on the bridge is taken aback. Its dead silence until Cox, the sonarman, reports high speed screws inbound. The movie ends with a mushroom cloud. A few factual errors but still a very tense, well written drama.

Chez

Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?

The only thing controversial about Hart was that the British didn't listen to him and the Germans did.

Chez

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?

The only thing controversial about Hart was that the British didn't listen to him and the Germans did.

Chez

That's rather what I thought. I have his "History of of the Second World War" copyright 1970, first printing evidently - I didn't ever remember him being counted as a whacko (except before the war).

B

IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......

As for the guyss' in SPR "fighting the whole German army"...Well...They WERE RANGERS !!!