Matrix Games Forums

Ron,

These efforts to make the game/scenario better are wonderful. I must point out that more complicated supply (meaning more types of supply) would make the game much less playable as it would require far more player time to move these things around to the right places.

IRL there were huge staffs doing this, and that is one thing that the generic supply model abstracts.

Taking away that abstraction and making the player simulate same with his/her own efforts would result in a game so burdensome that fewer than a dozen people would play it past a few turns.

When they do get around to WITP Mk II improvements to supply and elsewhere will be welcome, but they must keep the supply model simple enough to be well playable. 'Barely playable' or 'tolerable' would be fatal to a game that takes so many player-hours.

Ron,

Our posts overlapped. You might have some workable ideas in your last post.

Eventually I gave up and adopted an alternative approach for the problem I was trying to solve - that of increasing US supply generation during the war - by adding additional Heavy Industry to US bases, along with damaged resource and oil centres that must be repaired. This works well for the purpose I wanted it for.

I thought repair happens in a short time - days. How do you make it take a longer time?

Tin ore may assaye in at around 7.5 pounds of Tin per ton. At this point it was usually manufactured into "Virgin Pig" prior to actually being used in a true application. Note that Virgin Pig Tin is still considered to be a raw material and not a finished good ( i.e. a secondary metal in the terminology of the minerals year books ).

The German base on Java actually produced finished tin, and its products were virtually pure (more than 99%) tin. And you really can make a nice and effective bullet out of tin. It is not as dense as lead - so not quite as effective - and it is more expensive. So no one does it. But you could.

Hi, The SRA is not a desert with a few scattered oil wells and tin mines.
The area in 1941 supported over 100million people. It is in fact a giant supply generating farm. Supply of all kinds. Trying to sort it out makes no sense. It is worring about unimportant matters.

This is very frustrating: I begin to wonder if we need to change languages? English and logic appear insiffucient.

While it is quite true that the area generates supplies in the sense of food, cement, commercial wood products, and many forms of traditional manufactured goods, it is also perfectly FALSE that it produces modern military materials like torpedoes, mines, aircraft, tanks, naval guns, artillery pieces, electronics and spares (to name a few salient ones). To allow a place with significant rice production to feed a modern military air group, or port with warships, ore any combat unit with ammunition needs, is utter fiction and poor modeling. [I recommended three kinds of supply - fuel, ammo and general - but the model was simplified from that]. Of the many technical problems with WITP this is the BIGGEST and the most serious structural reason it is not a valid simulation - even in a crude sense. Failing to admit this - and opposing forming a consensus that it is the case - means Matrix won't address it - which is where it really needs to be addressed. Mogami is not contributing to a solution - he is dening there is any problem to solve. And I find it very frustrating since he clearly is incorrect in that opinion.

For example, Naval munitions. How annoying is this puppy? I can't count the number of threads highlighting the ability of ships to rearm and refuel anywhere. Why could this not have been tied to say...the size of the port, the amount of supply at the qualifying size port, or even better, tie the generic supply to a specific service unit? If a naval base unit is present and supply is ample, voila. Wow, mindbogglingly simple and abstract yet it satisfies the fact that some differentation is necessary for this not to get out of hand as it is. What we have now is a list of house rules which are larger than the manual would be if the manual was sufficiently in depth.

Any sort of qualifying unit would work. Presence of a Japanese Navy air base unit allows torpedoes given enough supply...not every base unit. Some of this exist now so the concept is not a new one. Size 9 ports allow mines. AS tenders supply torpedoes to subs...

At the risk of sounding like Mogami, I think these issues are non-issues, mostly. I read the manual last night and it seems to say lots of these things are present. And I cannot get most minelayers to reload ANYWHERE no matter the conditions! And as a destroyer sailor, I can tell you that you do not need any base to resupply in an emergency - if the suppilies are there at all we can move them aboard.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

For example, Naval munitions. How annoying is this puppy? I can't count the number of threads highlighting the ability of ships to rearm and refuel anywhere. Why could this not have been tied to say...the size of the port, the amount of supply at the qualifying size port, or even better, tie the generic supply to a specific service unit? If a naval base unit is present and supply is ample, voila. Wow, mindbogglingly simple and abstract yet it satisfies the fact that some differentation is necessary for this not to get out of hand as it is. What we have now is a list of house rules which are larger than the manual would be if the manual was sufficiently in depth.

Any sort of qualifying unit would work. Presence of a Japanese Navy air base unit allows torpedoes given enough supply...not every base unit. Some of this exist now so the concept is not a new one. Size 9 ports allow mines. AS tenders supply torpedoes to subs...

At the risk of sounding like Mogami, I think these issues are non-issues, mostly. I read the manual last night and it seems to say lots of these things are present. And I cannot get most minelayers to reload ANYWHERE no matter the conditions! And as a destroyer sailor, I can tell you that you do not need any base to resupply in an emergency - if the suppilies are there at all we can move them aboard.

aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh![:(]

I read the manual last night and it seems to say lots of these things are present.

Well...

And as a destroyer sailor, I can tell you that you do not need any base to resupply in an emergency - if the suppilies are there at all we can move them aboard.


You are killing me...what are we talking about? [8|] Being able to rearm battleships from a palm tree log wharf is not a "non-issue". My point was that the abstract supply modelcould be kept very simple with qualifying conditions such as Naval Base Units, port size etc. This does not exist for rearming warships yet it exists for the fan favourite mine warfare. (as you may have read in the manual yesterday, there just does not seem to be any real framework or fabric to the project. A collection of ideas from five or six games sewn up like Frankenstein. )

OK, I'm going for a nap....[:(]

Hi, OK for the last time and then I'll let you do what you want.
1. The Japanese player does not conquer the SRA with supply he finds in SRA but with supply he brings from Japan.
2. The Japanese would have to load it onto ships and ship to other areas to use for combat but it makes more sense to load oil/resource for Home Islands.

Read the manual. Only a portion of supply can be used for replacement purpose. Each item consumes points equal to load points.

Don't know what game your playing but I can't reload BB ammo at size 1 2 3 ports I can reload torps if I have a tender. Can't load mines without a tender. So changes here do nothing to me.


My point is your focus is on items that are not problems in games I 'm playing

I can't fathom how such basic and crucial elements of a game system were overlooked and remain so given all the kicks at the can on designs such as this and all the input from gamers for years.

I guess someone just likes being able to buy 16" bullets at every CVS.[8|] And house rules don't really cut it. If you refuel from a port that has supplies, you replenish ammo, period.

Although I have to say, after struggling thru GT1 with this mod, parking 300 AKs is sounding like a pretty good alternative.[;)]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Although I have to say, after struggling thru GT1 with this mod, parking 300 AKs is sounding like a pretty good alternative.[;)]

GT1 is always amajor bitch and a bit, eh?[X(]

So who actually plays CHS as IJ? All these different APs and AKs; this is nuts![;)]

Hi, And for the record. There were at least 3 military small arms ammunition factoires on Java alone. Small arms ammo was also produced in Bangkok, Singapore, Saigon and Manila

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, And for the record. There were at least 3 military small arms ammunition factoires on Java alone. Small arms ammo was also produced in Bangkok, Singapore, Saigon and Manila

That comes nowhere near my point aside from confirming you understand it (not being sarcastic here but I now know YOU know what my point is). Why not have placed manufacturing centres of a small value here instead of the free ammo, oh, rice. Actually, why not have big flashing images of guns, ammo, medicine, etc like in alot of the 1PS games have all over the place that you can pick up along the way?[:D]

Being able to rearm battleships from a palm tree log wharf is not a "non-issue".

I got to work with Big J (USS New Jersey) in 1968. By luck I was present when she fired her first practice shots off San Clamente Island and also when she fired her first shots in anger off the DMZ. [Meaning first shots of that commissioning]. My job was to protect her from ASCM attacks, which were expected from about August, because the enemy was becoming operational with SS-N-2 Styx from around then.

Rearming a battleship is not really the major limitation: her tubes are. She carries something like 1800 rounds - but her tube life is less than twice that - so she really cannot rearm at all and still shoot to hit anything!
We did send a set of liners to Subic, but in the event didn't use them - she was sent home before shooting out the first set. Still - it would not have been possible to change the liners anywhere else - in the world!

I was thinking about major ship support today at work. Why not adopt simple house rules? Port size, tenders, factors like that? I at least would have no problem honoring them - although it gives some advantage to the Allies - they have more support ships - that is fair. And those ships are vulnerable, and cannot be everywhere.

And house rules don't really cut it. If you refuel from a port that has supplies, you replenish ammo, period.

The only house rule that would work would say you could not refuel from a minor port (below size three say). And that may be fair - it has no channel deep enough for a major ship to enter! Imagine trying to sail a CV or a BB into Midway! [I was present when two destroyers failed to navigate the entrance without trouble - one hit the other - bow to side - which was bad enough - but then three loads of damage control specialists were lost in helo crashed. Major trouble - and these are small and maneuverable ships - just from navigating a channel through a reef. Big ships could not do it at all. So we just make it a rule you don't.

And for the record. There were at least 3 military small arms ammunition factoires on Java alone. Small arms ammo was also produced in Bangkok, Singapore, Saigon and Manila

Yep. Great for those .30 cal weapons. But we can feed our Imperial ammunition - odd though it is - right up to 18 inch - from ANY resource center. Says so right where it says supply points come from resource centers. Since I reload ammunition, I understand just how easy that would be. I just need to buy my powder in bags, and cast those bullets in one ton and ton and a half molds! Since the ammunition is not fixed, we don't have to worry about shell casings at all! Never mind that every ammunition manufacturing operation on the planet needs antimony for its lead - and that small small arms plants just buy their bullets from big ones. We all know that the ability to make a .30 cal bullet is the same as any other form of ammunition an army or navy might require. Good point Mogami.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

So who actually plays CHS as IJ? All these different APs and AKs; this is nuts![;)]

I do - !!!

It is useful if you want to make a fast merchie task force !

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, And for the record. There were at least 3 military small arms ammunition factoires on Java alone. Small arms ammo was also produced in Bangkok, Singapore, Saigon and Manila

This probably fits perfectly into the "light industrial" concept we've been batting about in conjunction with separating the auto-supply generation from the resource generation ( and then adding some light industrial - where approrpiate ).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, And for the record. There were at least 3 military small arms ammunition factoires on Java alone. Small arms ammo was also produced in Bangkok, Singapore, Saigon and Manila


This probably fits perfectly into the "light industrial" concept we've been batting about in conjunction with separating the auto-supply generation from the resource generation ( and then adding some light industrial - where approrpiate ).

It does - except it looks to me like it will be easier in some cases just to let some of the supplies from resource centers "live" - by eating fewer of them. The advantage of actual heavy industry in the colonies is that it eats resources and makes heavy industry points - but that won't be appropriate everywhere anyway - and it is going to take some effort to figure out what should be done where? But yes, cities like Singapore, Manila, Rangoon, Hanoi, Saigon, even Cebu (which has a real shipyard) have industry of various kinds.