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On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.
 
The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.
 
Lars

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?

No, the change in Food in Flames replaces the original rule. Instead of being pro Axis it is now pro Allies.

The latest wording of the option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, India and South Africa where one or more resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, add 1 production point to the Commonwealth total.

I did say buildpoint above, it was corrected to being a production point.

Lars

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On internment the pilot from the interred plane is added to the Minor Country's controlling Major Power's reeerves.

The Food in Flames rules above are not the latest version. In the latest version one build point is added the the CW for each of the South Africa, India, and Australia for which a valid convoy line exists.

Lars

I'll clarify the Internment writeup.


For the Food in Flames, is the change in addition to the negative effects if the convoy lines do not exist? And maintaining the Canadian link has no extra positive effect?

No, the change in Food in Flames replaces the original rule. Instead of being pro Axis it is now pro Allies.

The latest wording of the option 29: (Food in Flames) For each of Australia, India and South Africa where one or more resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain this turn, add 1 production point to the Commonwealth total.

I did say buildpoint above, it was corrected to being a production point.

Lars

Thanks. I'll fix it.

Build points and Production points mean the same thing and are used interchangably in WiF Final Edition.
 
I copyed the exact options and their references in other rules (with no changes) in the file I sent to Steve.

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Build points and Production points mean the same thing and are used interchangably in WiF Final Edition.

I copyed the exact options and their references in other rules (with no changes) in the file I sent to Steve.

Production points are multiplied by the production multiple to arrive at buildpoints.

In 1939 with a multiple of .5, the CW's gain from the Food in Flames rule is a maximum of 1.5 build points.

In 1941 with a multiple of 1, the CW's gain is a maximum of 3 build points.

Lars

Similarly, strategic bombing reduces production points, not build points.

So, 4 production point hits on Germany in 1942= 5 build points lost. (4 production points x 1.25 production multiple= 5 BP's)

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Production points are multiplied by the production multiple to arrive at buildpoints.

In 1939 with a multiple of .5, the CW's gain from the Food in Flames rule is a maximum of 1.5 build points.

In 1941 with a multiple of 1, the CW's gain is a maximum of 3 build points.

Lars

Since production points only exist when calculating production and cannot be traded or shipped. Production points are just build points prior to applying the production multiple.

Build Points = BP

Production multiple = M (The Major powers production multiple for the current production step).

Production points = P (The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them).

Strategic bombardment destroys the factorys (if not using 22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30) the factorys are unuasable for the current production step).

Production is therefore calculated as:

BP = PM.

Or

Build Points = The total number of un-destroyed factorys that had scheduled resources reach them. Multiplied by the Major powers Production multiplier for the current production step.

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22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30)

You can build a maximum of 1 new factory a turn for each major power. They cost 8 build points each and take 4 turns to arrive. When a new factory arrives, you must put a marker onto a city hex in your home country to refl ect its construction (only in Britain for the Commonwealth until conquered). You can never have more than 2 blue factories in a hex. New factories are always blue factories.

If a printed factory is destroyed, you don’t have to rebuild it from scratch; you can repair it. This is cheaper and faster (4 build points and 2 turns). You can only repair printed factories, not factories you constructed.

ORIGINAL: mlees

Similarly, strategic bombing reduces production points, not build points.

So, 4 production point hits on Germany in 1942= 5 build points lost. (4 production points x 1.25 production multiple= 5 BP's)

2.6 Fractions

These rules frequently require a calculation that produces a fraction. When you have to do this, round to the nearest whole number, rounding halves up.

Example: Germany has 21 production points. Her production multiple is 1.25, so she has 26.25 build points. This rounds to 26 points. Next year her production multiple increases to 1.5, so she has 31.5 build points. This rounds to 32.

It depends on the total production.

Can someone tell me what this actually means?

"You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power's capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). "

The confusion comes from about 3 directions at once.
1 - oil marker? Is that the same as an oil point?
2 - city or port (cumulative)? 1 for the city and one for the port , I guess is what they are trying to say. A hex with both a city and port could save 2 oil points?
3 - double in a major power's capital? I would normally think this means multiply by two but the example doesn't support that interpretation.

So, a simple reading of this would be London can store 4 oil points = (1 for the city + 1 for the port) times 2 for being a major power's capital.

Now, if I am generous I could read the 3 question I have above as meaning double for a capital and double again for a major power's capital. But that only gets me as far as (1 + 1) * 2 *2 = 8. Where they get 4 * 4 = 16 is unclear.

Has someone figured this out?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Can someone tell me what this actually means?

"You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power's capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). "

The confusion comes from about 3 directions at once.
1 - oil marker? Is that the same as an oil point?
2 - city or port (cumulative)? 1 for the city and one for the port , I guess is what they are trying to say. A hex with both a city and port could save 2 oil points?
3 - double in a major power's capital? I would normally think this means multiply by two but the example doesn't support that interpretation.

So, a simple reading of this would be London can store 4 oil points = (1 for the city + 1 for the port) times 2 for being a major power's capital.

Now, if I am generous I could read the 3 question I have above as meaning double for a capital and double again for a major power's capital. But that only gets me as far as (1 + 1) * 2 *2 = 8. Where they get 4 * 4 = 16 is unclear.

Has someone figured this out?

Ok, I think I understand this now. The key is the use of the rather common word marker with a special meaning. I am going to rephrase this as oil depot instead of oil marker. An oil depot can store 4 oil points. London can have 4 oil depots present: (1 for the city + 1 for the port) * 2 for the being a major power's capital. Hence the example gives 4 oil points per depot * 4 depots = 16 oil points maximum in London.

I am writing this all up under the optional rules that I'll post later today.

Your interpretation in the post # 71 above is correct.
 
Lars

Here is a revised writeup for the Food in Flames optional rule plus two new ones for you to critique. (30 done, 51 to go).

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[26][Food In Flames][RAW 29 s. 13.6.1]
This optional rule reflects the benefit Great Britain derived from the rest of the Commonwealth providing food for the British Isles. If supply lines to the far-flung member nations of the Commonwealth are maintained to Great Britain, then the Commonwealth’s total production is increased.

For each of (1) Australia, (2) India, and (3) South Africa where at least 1 resource is transported to a factory in Great Britain during a turn, the number of production points for the Commonwealth is increased by 1. Note that these are production (neither build nor resource) points and do not required processing by a factory. They are converted into build points the same as any other production points, by being multiplied by the production multiple.
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[27][Factory Destruction & Construction][RAW 30 s. 22.2, 13.6.8]
This optional rule allows a player to build new factories and rebuild destroyed factories. Because factories cost a lot to build and take 4 turns to arrive, it is not always obvious if building a new one is a good thing to do. Repairing destroyed factories is cheaper and faster than building new ones. The only downside to repairing a factory, rather than building a new one, is that the repaired factory will be in the same hex in which it was destroyed at least once already.

For World in Flames building a factory is as close to a capital investment as a player can get. You give up near term build points (8 of them) with the expectation that you will get more than that back in the future. Since the factories won’t start producing until they arrive 4 turns hence, and you need for them to be operational for at least 8 turns to repay the original investment, we are talking about not seeing any return/profit on your investment until 2 years from when you build them. Even then, they are only worth something if you have unused resources sitting around continuously.

Each major power can build a maximum of 1 new factory a turn. They cost 8 build points each and take 4 turns to arrive. When a new factory does arrive, it is a blue factory and it must be placed in a city hex in the major power’s home country. For the Commonwealth the only home country in which a new factory can be placed is Britain (until Britain is conquered). There can never be more than 2 blue factories in a hex.

If a preexisting factory is destroyed, you don't have to rebuild it from scratch. Instead you can repair it. This is cheaper and faster (4 build points and 2 turns). Note that you can’t repair newly constructed factories, only ones that preexisted at the start of the war (prior to 1940). If you are playing with Engineer units, you can't repair a destroyed factory unless an engineer unit is stacked in the factory hex on the turn you pay for the repair.

All factories can be destroyed by Strategic bombardment. When there is a choice, the blue factories are destroyed before the red. A enemy player may also destroy a blue factory if one of his land units (this includes partisan units) is in supply in the factory’s hex during the victory check step. Each land unit can only destroy 1 factory a turn. Specifically, for a hex has 2 blue factories, you may only destroy both in the same turn if you have 2 land units there.
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[28][Saving Oil Resources and Build Points][RAW 31 s. 13.5.1]
This optional rule lets a player save build points and oil resources (i.e., oil points). It should probably be used whenever the optional rule for oil is being used. With this rule in effect, a player does not have to depend on fresh oil every turn for reorganizing his troops. Instead, he can use the old stuff from previous turns. It also lets the player save resources and build points for production in later turns, essentially retaining excess production as inventory against a future date when it might be more useful.

A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for a port, and double if it’s a major power’s capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points = (4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power’s capital. You can't save non-oil resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to their previously saved oil).

You save build points the same way as saving oil resources with the same constraints on number per hex. You can save both oil points and build points in the same hex (e.g., 16 of each in London).

Once you have saved oil resources you can use them exactly like any other oil resource: either to reorganize units or as resources for production. You can also transport saved build points and saved oil points like any other resource, with the additional flexibility that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, an oil resource still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

In a later production step, you can remove saved build points from the map and add them to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital but no more than 1 saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port. For example, you can spend 4 saved build points in Hamburg (1 for the city + 1 for the port + 2 for the factories), and an unlimited number in Berlin each turn).

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources (or saved enemy build points), they become your oil resources (or build points). Saved build points and saved oil resources can also be destroyed by strategic bombardment .

When you are using the optional rule for Synthetic Oil Plants, oil resources can only be saved at oil depots. Each oil depot can hold 4 oil points and the number of oil depots permitted in a hex is: 1 for a city, 1 for a port, and double if it’s a major power’s capital. This works out the same as before, with London having a maximum capacity of 16 saved oil points. The difference is that you must build the oil depot(s) at a cost of 1 build point each. When you build an oil depot, it has one oil point in it. There is no cost for placing additional oil points in an oil depot, up to their maximum value of 4 oil. Once you use the last oil point in an oil depot, the oil depot disappears and must be rebuilt if you want to store more oil there in the future.

Using the optional rule for Synthetic Oil Plants has the added change of permitting neutral major powers (like all other major powers) to save as many oil points per turn as they desire.

When you are using the optional rule for Factory Destruction and Construction, the strategic bombardment bonus for bombers that fly to their target uncontested (no enemy fighters) changes. Normally the bonus is a flat +1. When the optional rules for Factory Destruction and Construction and Saving Oil Resources are both in effect, the addition is 0.1 times the number of factories, oil resources, synthetic oil plants (if that optional rule is being used), saved oil, and saved build points in the hex. Any fraction is converted to the next whole number. For example, 3 factories + 3 saved oil + 5 saved build points gives a +2 bonus to the strategic bombers (1.1 –> 2). Also, there is now no stacking limit for saved build points or saved oil resources in any city or port.

The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.
 
As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.
 
The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.
 
Lars

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
1 - The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.

2 - As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.

3 - The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.

Lars

Thanks for your quick review.

1 - Yes. I'll clarify that.

2 - The link is in section 13.5.1, about halfway down, RAW Option 31 (Saved Oil Resources) starts and continues to the end of the section. It includes the two paragraphs at the very bottom that describe the interaction with RAW Options 14 (synthetic oil plants) and 30 (factory destruction and construction).

3 - the Option 30 link described above.

There is the general statement in RAW that optional rules can be used in part or whole. But fragmenting each of them into pieces to be selected ala carte would greatly expand the number of optional rules. I did split the engineers into two options, (which I think is best), but am loathe to do any more that way.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
1 - The repairing of destroyed factories requiring an engineer in the hex is only if that particular portion of the engineer option is used.

2 - As far as I am aware the use of Synth Oil plants has no impact on the oil savings rules. That is to say that the 'oil Depot' rule is an option that is not tied in with Synth Oil Plants. I have not found a tie in in the rules.

3 - The strategic bomber bonus change is also a free standing option and when it is in use there is no limit to the oil saving in a port. Personally I do not like this new option.

Lars

Thanks for your quick review.

1 - Yes. I'll clarify that.

2 - The link is in section 13.5.1, about halfway down, RAW Option 31 (Saved Oil Resources) starts and continues to the end of the section. It includes the two paragraphs at the very bottom that describe the interaction with RAW Options 14 (synthetic oil plants) and 30 (factory destruction and construction).

3 - the Option 30 link described above.

There is the general statement in RAW that optional rules can be used in part or whole. But fragmenting each of them into pieces to be selected ala carte would greatly expand the number of optional rules. I did split the engineers into two options, (which I think is best), but am loathe to do any more that way.

Synth plants are in para 22.4.11 with no restrictions as to oil savings.

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Then option 30 at the end of 13.5.1 removes the oil savings restrictions and changes the bombing attack rules.

Seems the easiest solution is to have Synth plants yes/no as one option, and the unrestricted oil savings in ports or cities with the bombing change as one option. If this last option is not in use, the standard oil savings rule would be in force, provide the general oil rule is in effect.

Why anyone would want to use an 'oil depot' option that restricts the use of saved oil and attaches a cost to it is beyond my understanding and this one ought not to be tied to synth plants on or off or even be included at all.

Lars

Lars

I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

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13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

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One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

----------------------

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

----------------------

One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.

Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.

It gets pretty convoluted. particularly for a newbie.

Lars

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I agree that the oil depot stuff makes no sense. It costs 1 build point to create an oil depot and it comes with one oil point to start. Since a build point may cost 2 resource points (when the production multiple is 0.5) or 1/2 a resource (when the production multiple is 2), at times you use 2 resources to create a depot and at other times you use 1/2 a resource. In both cases they may or may not be oil resources. Reading this as a rules lawyer, it appears you could use one regular resource to produce 1 production point to produce 2 build points (PM = 2) and then create 2 oil depots, each with 1 oil point in it!

2 oil resources for the price of one regular resource is a good deal. Given enough factories you could set up a little production scheme that would generate a lot of oil points from virtually nothing. Perhaps that was the intent? To give the players the ability to produce synthetic oil from coal (regular resource)?

----------------------

13.5.1 at the end has option 14 - 'oil depots' and does not mention synth plants but places restrictions on saving and using of oil.

Option 14 is the Synthetic Oil Plants RAW Option #. I take that label (Option 14) to be a short hand notation refering to the Synthetic oil plants option.

----------------------

One of the reasons I am going to the trouble of rewriting all these is because it requires such strenuous effort to figure them out. I want to make them as clear as crystal, even to a novice.

Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.

It gets pretty convoluted. particularly for a newbie.

Lars

I agree completely. I'll try to work out something more straightforward. But it is going to require pencil and paper with little arrows connecting stuff.

I would try to stay as close to RAW as possible - however there are limits to the number of conditional if clauses I can tolerate in a single branch of a rules system.

Per your option description regarding Synth plants it would then seem that chosing the Synth plant option the oil depots are an unavoidable part of it. Then to avoid the depot situation one would have to also choose the modified bomber rule (option 30) which is really the 'factory destruction and repair option. That does do away with the depots to the chagrin of anyone who would like to have them. Of course one must also then choose the appropriate Engr option. And the whole situation is not applicable if one does not use the oil for reorg option.

When I play CWiF, I would choose

Syth Plant = yes

factory construction/destruction = yes

Oil reorg = no

save oil points = no

The net effect is to give the player (me) the ability to expand (in a limited fashion) my industrial power, and not have to spend the time trying to figure out how much oil to save to reorg my forces.

This admitedly benefits Britain, as they do not have to deploy extra convoys to ship the extra oil points to the UK... but the AI (sic) hasn't complained yet.