Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
I am really pleased to see how well the Tojo is performing here in early 1943. If you have some time, could you share your thoughts on the Japanese production side of the house? It looks like you are producing a lot of frames for a limited number of aircraft models? What are you trying to set up for an upgrade path for your fighters and bombers.
Mike

Upgrading ...

Cause of the SNAFU below with the Sabre's, my Betty's are supposed to upgrade to G4M2m22, then the Sabre, now I'll miss out and am looking to the Frances as the replacement, but this means another huge outlay in supplies.

As for the rest, there is really nothing else I'm looking to build apart from the Uhu, the Tojo III, is so superior to anything else I can produce until 45, I'm investing heavily here ... I'm still unsure about the other fighters armament, but I always take top speed as my benchmark.

PLEASE - Anyone want to help me with making a Tracker rating system for A/C ?

I'm really interested in the R&D part. For every 100 frames built in R&D you get the frame a month earlier so I'm curious as to the most months you've managed to shave off to get a frame out early.

[*]I got Tojo's in mid-Nov '42, about 3 months early ... but had I learned earlier about a huge flaw in the R&D model, I could have had them much earlier.
[*]OscarII's, 2.5 months early - what a complete waste!
[*]I got Sabre's in Feb '43, 2 years early ... yes I wrote and you read correctly... I think I can tell you how now that Joe Wilkerson and Nemo know. AE has fixed this one, or so I believe.

WARNING *** EXPLOIT
In Nemo's mod, there are a load of (0)0 engines and airframe factories, there is a null pointer error in the game, so having these surplus factories set to a particular engine or plane will allow you to "magically" build planes and engines, or do R&D... Remember you need the factories fully repaired before any R&D will occur, so 0(0), is fully repaired right... anyway it is in minute amounts, but if you throw the whole weight of the surplus (0)0 factories behind something, it does very well [;)]

I however, am now in a bind, cause I will miss out on a load of airgroups and planes, because many models upgrade to the Sabre ... I recommend, setting these 0(0)factories to something useless, cause it is a complete rort. And just so you know, I am exploiting this as a turbo switch to build more Tojo's and Nissans. Nemo knows about this.

Do you think the cost of R&D investment is worth receiving a frame like the Ki-44III Tojo early?

Even without the above information, do I believe this plane is worthwhile ? You gotta believe it!!
Invest in R&D from Day 1, build just size 30 factories, any bigger is a waste (from testing), and build multiple factories.

Wrote this elsewhere about BB1.4:

3. R&D
Divided opinion here, but take it from me, if you manage your R&D you can get some good results. Think about picking just one or max two planes in '42 and maybe one long term project.

# Damaged R&D factories do not supply points, so a (1)30 factory will not supply R&D points until it is fully repaired.
# More factories doing R&D are better than less. If comparing just one 30(0) or 3 * 10(0) the latter is better.
# Larger factories do not supply more points - there is no substantial difference between a 30 and a 300 R&D factory.
# Factories that are damaged but Repairs turned off do not accrue points.
# Size 30 will give about 1 point per day... you need 100 to get a month off.

So I guess you have to research what you think you can devote enough time and supplies to, to get any benefit. Build as many plants as you can in the 30-60 range... realising that for aircrafts in research probability of repairing of factory element depends on number of days till aircraft enters production and total factory size (sum of ready and disabled elements): If RANDOM(0 .. NumberOfDaysTillInProduction) > SizeOfFactory then factory element will not be repaired that day. So building more than a year out takes a large factory...

To make it worthwhile you need to do the math...so 2 x 30 factories fully repaired gives you possibly 2 points/day, hence 50 days to get a month off. But you need to get them fully repaired, which means they need to be large enough to repair fairly quickly ... a nice conundrum, heh ?

The ki-44 and ki-61B must be on your priority list, the Oscar is just going to get your pilots killed quickly. One or 2 months is all you can expect here. Then pick one more further out in late 42 or 43 to repair... I think fighters are the way to go, bombers are pretty much the same (but haven't played late war yet)

OK let's look at some production numbers ...



I will come back and talk about the Tracker screens later [:'(]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

I'm not sure of supply levels at some of the smaller Allied bases, but is there a complete bias in this game with repairs and supplies (Allies can, Japs can't WTF!), I suspect this cause of Ulithi & others, just keeps coming back ... I'm going to test this issue ... stay tuned!

Well just learnt a new thing for the day ... supplies are not required for airfield or port damage repair. And these repairs happen post-aircombat phase. So Yes, we all know the Allies repair quicker ... but shouldn't this require some supplies at base just to feed the men?

--Damian--

IIRC, the manual says that engineers need supply in order to function.  If my recollection is correct, that would mean a bug if such repairs can be undertaken without supply or its consumption.
 
Alfred

Thanks Alfred,
but I think it must be a bug, cause I set the engineering units to no supplies, on isolated atolls with 99 damage and no supplies and they still repaired.

--Damian--

Again, going from memory, after some more cogitation, I'm pretty certain that the manual referred to engineers needing supply in order to build up airfields and ports.  It would be illogical, IMHO, for the same not to apply to repairs.  Do you think this non consumption applies only to this mod or is game engine applicable?
 
Alfred

That is correct, they need supplies to build up, but not do repairs... or so I've found. Yeah, it's a bit illogical.

I test on stock, never Nemo's EA. Actually to be specific, I test on a small scale mod which I've created from Coral Sea mod, but I assume it is the same.

Damian

[edit] and I've just tested it without any units and it still repairs!!!

Hi Damian,

Very intersting posts - ty. So it sounds like the reason you received the Sabre so early was all of the air factories having a preset of Sabre @ 0x0... Setting them all to the N1K1-J George or the J9M1 Stan would give you a fighter with the altitude to get up to those blasted B-17s... Seeing 50-60 of those lumbering beasties flying over a japanese base is frustrating - lol.

Now I know why I'm producing the Mitsubishi engines even tho I have production turned off for those... I couldn't for the life figure out why I kept producing 3-5 engines almost every turn.

It's too bad construction battalions don't help build factories - <grin>. That was an interesting test and bug-find to see air fields repair w/o supplies.

I have been capping my production factories @ 64 instead of 32 like you mention. I could see why I'd want a lot of smaller R&D factories - I am running those at size 8. I see tho that If I'd like to try for the Stan early I'd need a very-very large factory setting -lol.

Looking at your Angel production made me gasp - that's what - 600 engines per month? Are they as tough to be shot down by allied fighters as they appear? So do you have all of your 0x0 engine factories set for building the Mansyu?

And have you had a chance to use the Behemoth on allied shipping yet? To see a few groups of those bad boyz over an allied CV TF would do my heart good - lol.

Thanks for the postings - I look forward to your discussions regarding the tracker screens later.


TTFN,

Mike

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
...
I have been capping my production factories @ 64 instead of 32 like you mention. I could see why I'd want a lot of smaller R&D factories - I am running those at size 8. I see tho that If I'd like to try for the Stan early I'd need a very-very large factory setting -lol.

I did some later testing on this fact, and I found that the difference between large and small factories repairing fully for R&D was negligible in the long run. What I mean is that:
A larger factory does repair incrementally faster, but because it is larger, it reaches fully repaired around the same time as a smaller one. But I only did one series of tests[8|]

Looking at your Angel production made me gasp - that's what - 600 engines per month? Are they as tough to be shot down by allied fighters as they appear? So do you have all of your 0x0 engine factories set for building the Mansyu?

Yep, they are tougher to kill, but they are by no means immune, I've found that if I send them with some Betty's, the Betty's are beaten into a bloody pulp and the Angels fair much better, than just sending them alone. They are great bombers, I think Nemo has at times been kicking himself for giving me such great weapons, but sending them into bases with massive cap is not going to be good, and I feel now that Nemo has better fighters, the tide has turned somewhat on what I can realistically achieve without destroying my Angel groups.
Another big consideration is the supply use, they suck supplies at a rate I never fully appreciated until now ... 20K supplies at Saipan are sucked up pretty quickly by 200+ Angels on bombing runs.

And have you had a chance to use the Behemoth on allied shipping yet? To see a few groups of those bad boyz over an allied CV TF would do my heart good - lol.

Not yet, but SS's have been hit and sunk in one turn. Hope they get to bomb a CV or two [;)] I'd also like to see the Sabre drop an 800KG bomb[:D]

Yep, they are tougher to kill, but they are by no means immune, I've found that if I send them with some Betty's, the Betty's are beaten into a bloody pulp and the Angels fair much better, than just sending them alone. They are great bombers, I think Nemo has at times been kicking himself for giving me such great weapons, but sending them into bases with massive cap is not going to be good, and I feel now that Nemo has better fighters,

IMHO you'll especially have problems against Allied cannon-armed fighters. Against most bombers you need manuverability, but against the Me-264's, firepower is where it's at.

ORIGINAL: n01487477


Not yet, but SS's have been hit and sunk in one turn. Hope they get to bomb a CV or two [;)] I'd also like to see the Sabre drop an 800KG bomb[:D]

So the sub was - in theory - on the surface I assume?


TTFN,

Mike

ORIGINAL: n01487477


WARNING *** EXPLOIT
In Nemo's mod, there are a load of (0)0 engines and airframe factories, there is a null pointer error in the game, so having these surplus factories set to a particular engine or plane will allow you to "magically" build planes and engines, or do R&D... Remember you need the factories fully repaired before any R&D will occur, so 0(0), is fully repaired right... anyway it is in minute amounts, but if you throw the whole weight of the surplus (0)0 factories behind something, it does very well [;)]

Hi Damian,

I've been pondering on this and doing some research. I have had my Mitsubishi engines off for about 20 turns but couldn't for the life of me figure out why I was getting what looked to be 4-5 engines every turn.

Now I can see it's all of those 0x0 factories that are defaulted to Mitsubishi.

I am assuming I'm being charged the supply cost for the engines/frames produced? Looking back for the last 10 turns I see I've produced something like 70 mitsubushi engines. I assume I'm doing the same for the Sabres...

So I think, if I'm paying for the engines anyways I'll set them to whatever I want and not feel like it's an abuse.

I am also planning to set all of those 0x0 Sabre factories to an airframe currently in production to get away from the exploit on R&D.

Just curious - have you tried setting all of the 0x0 factories down with repairs off to see if they stop producing?

TTFN,

Mike

ORIGINAL: I am assuming I'm being charged the supply cost for the engines/frames produced? Looking back for the last 10 turns I see I've produced something like 70 mitsubushi engines. I assume I'm doing the same for the Sabres...
So I think, if I'm paying for the engines anyways I'll set them to whatever I want and not feel like it's an abuse.

Well you are being charged HI, so I concur but it is in a grey area.

I am also planning to set all of those 0x0 Sabre factories to an airframe currently in production to get away from the exploit on R&D.

Just curious - have you tried setting all of the 0x0 factories down with repairs off to see if they stop producing?

With repairs off, it makes no difference, however, and I can't remember offhand but will check, you might turn them to halt production and see what occurs.

22 Feb '43
[*]DM Wakataka hits a mine at Truk
[*]Okha is bombed once again (5 O'clock Ruskie - daily)
[*]Amoy, Nemo pulls back from my overwhelming force and 15 Allied fighter losses & 174 Runway hits later ...
[*]Roxas and Taytay is attacked again by my forces.
[*]Ulithi is my training target and is hit by loads of TB/DB trainers.

The big news is the movement of Allied AP/AK's toward Rabaul, sending out my forces from Truk, but am concerned that this might be a bluff. Rabaul has been reinforced with fighters and LB.

Hong Kong, which is outside TojoIII range, looks like it will become the staging area for something...

--Damian---

23 Feb '43

Since Nemo saw me moving in some LB to Rabaul, he withdrew saying I should have waited one more turn, I'd rather stop the invasion, this way at present, but he makes a good point, I was a bit eager...

Now, I've seen a small force near Ebon moving SW, so either things are hotting up down under, or I'm about to be caught completely out of position, but I haven't seen anything North, so I'm staying put for a day of two...

Near Hong Kong many more ships have been sighted and I am organising my response, things are getting nasty, the Chinese are just walking across the South with not much to oppose them.

[*]Camrahyn Bay, lots of hits, but Nemo moved out all the planes ... lucky bugger!
[*]First attack on Chungking of the war, and what do I find but almost 50 fighters...

Day Air attack on Chungking [W China] , at 43,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-264 Angel x 49

Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 14
P-40E Warhawk x 14
Beaufighter Mk X x 3
Lancer x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-264 Angel: 10 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Lancer: 2 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 3 destroyed
IL-4C: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 34

--Damian--

24 Feb '43

So much for the limitations on searching ... there are no planes at Tarawa (even though symbol is showing) and only 7 H8k2's at Tulagi ... so I'm guessing that this must be a sizeable force... a "Nemo Armada".[;)]

Not much else to report out of the ordinary, SS I-36 torpedo's her second AK in 2 days near Hong Kong.

25 Feb '43
Start with an email from Nemo121:

Well, you have the chance to move in force. I think your problem is that for a few months now I've been very deliberately keeping your ships at sea so much that their damage will go up and, more importantly, your fuel reserves have to be very low now. I'm not sure what your levels are overall but I'm quite sure you have to be at a level where you have to scramble to get fuel and supplies to Truk and in so doing are running low elsewhere...

In the end if you have 1,000 fighters and strike planes BUT your carriers can no longer sprint to intercept mine when they show up it doesn't matter how many planes you have... as you'll never get in range to use them. I think we're at the stage where by mid-year fuel is going to kill the IJN a lot more dead than my CVs ever will. I might be wrong but given your losses in HI ( which convert fuel ), tankers and the massive usage of CVs over the past 6 months in order to stabilise the front I think you've got to be running low... I'm just not sure how much it's hurting you yet or whether you still have a few months of grace.

He's right of course, I've been lumbering fuel for months, I'm now down to 830K fuel from 1.5K 2 months ago ...

My reply: I'm sure you never bothered working out how much fuel all these new ships would consume (I never would either), but let me tell you it is very challenging, just on the fuel consumption alone. I have supplies and fuel at Truk, but the added effort overall (Philippines etc ) is strangling me back home

Nemo's reply:
Hehe, oh I did work out the fuel requirements ( roughly ). You know me by now, if I do something I check into the ramifications. The 75pointCAs use a goodly percentage of the fuel of a BB and the Shinano class CVAs use a god awful amount of fuel.

Throw in all the military engines ( which use lots of fuel ) on the raider-CVLs and fast-AOs and you can easily get to a place where you need double the fuel that you otherwise would.

That wouldn't be crippling but my forcing you to keep those ships at sea AND all of my feints around Truk has, I'm sure, burned through half a million tons of fuel in the past 3 months and that's got to be crippling. I can't say for sure obviously but I'm pretty sure.

Are you listening Hartwig ? [:D]

The major action for today:

Day Air attack on TF, near Shanghai [E China] at 52,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 5
Ki-115 Sabre x 6

Allied aircraft
A-20G Havoc x 3
B-19A x 6
Vengeance I x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
A-20G Havoc: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Noshiro Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Oigawa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Koshin Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Damn, they slip through and do this kind of damage!

The TF, I was tracking has gone into the shadows, I hope that they have returned back to damnation, but I fear they are lurking and Nemo with his fuel warning, is just keeping me on my toes... I can't stop him, but I want some recompense [;)]

--Damian--

Hi Damian,

If you stop production for air units / ships for a day or two how will that affect fuel reserves?

I look 4ward to hearing how you plan to extract your pound of flesh <grin>. I think you've got to do something to put Fionn back on his heels. Maybe a raid in his back area? He too must be sending lotsa supplies/fuel to PH/Kwajalein to feed his TFs.

How are you for subs? Can you use them as feelers to find his supply lines? Maybe some of those Bemoths flying Naval search?

It might draw a little pucker-factor from Fionn if your serach planes and subs start locating shipping in his back waters... And mybe tie up some of his TFs to provide better support <laughter>

Just curious - are you planning a hammer-strike somewhere?


TTFN,

Mike

Hi Damian

Which map is this? Will this map also be available for AE?

Andy

Hi Damian

Which map is this? Will this map also be available for AE?

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for joining in ... this is a map based on a RHS level 5/6 map IIRC, which Nemo121(the mod creator) has changed. There are more beautiful Level 6 & 7 maps, which NY59Giants has modified for BB1.5 mod (scroll a little on spookies site to find ... a very good one IMO)...

These maps are not available for AE, but probably if some fan has some time (and it will take some time), maybe we will see alternatives ... just like WITP, it takes a while for the community to create new utils and add-ons.

Hi Damian,

If you stop production for air units / ships for a day or two how will that affect fuel reserves?

Mike, would be nice if it worked that way, but fuel is not needed for production in WITP, in AE it is.

I look 4ward to hearing how you plan to extract your pound of flesh <grin>. I think you've got to do something to put Fionn back on his heels. Maybe a raid in his back area? He too must be sending lotsa supplies/fuel to PH/Kwajalein to feed his TFs.

That was the plan, but now I'm reacting again in the South near Tulagi ... although I've lost sight and might return home to Truk soon.

How are you for subs? Can you use them as feelers to find his supply lines? Maybe some of those Behemoths flying Naval search?

Yep doing that, not much to see, and I have a CVE patrolling near Wake, to see what's around too... Very few subs left, can't afford to produce many.

Just curious - are you planning a hammer-strike somewhere?

Planning, and then reacting, which is killing me ...

26 Feb '43

Combat for the day, more suppression attacks on airfields and ground attacks on Allied troops at Foochow, not that it helped much!

Ground combat at Foochow [S China]

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 73046 troops, 682 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 4124
Defending force 10671 troops, 77 guns, 49 vehicles, Assault Value = 246

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied max assault: 5642 - adjusted assault: 1663
Japanese max defense: 259 - adjusted defense: 317

Allied assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 0

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Hi Damian,

If you stop production for air units / ships for a day or two how will that affect fuel reserves?

Mike, would be nice if it worked that way, but fuel is not needed for production in WITP, in AE it is.

Right - I was thinking that if you are running low on HI you could stockpile by cutting production in other areas. for a day or two... <grin>

Andy,
Just a screen shot of this game under another enhanced RHS map (no it doesn't work correctly for AE or this mod as the pwhex file is wrong for a few bases ... was working at one stage to do this, gave up with all the other things I'm doing ... ) Crisp isn't it ?

No problems Mike, I make these kind of mistakes all the time [;)]
--Damian--