Matrix Games Forums

crusader kings 2 is a niche game as well, like most other paradox titles. yet they managed to sell about 1 mln copies if my memory serves me well... so did endless space (and the only good thing about this game is top-notch interface). consider also the fact that distant worlds is quite far into its lifespan already (basic game is over 3 years old) and new expansion is mainly catering to existing playerbase, as it requires like 2.5 AAA games of monetary worth just to get to position to actually buy the shadows expansion. yes, i guess that publisher would earn much less per copy, and i consider your point on smaller markets valid, but what i'm trying to say is that every copy sold through steam or whatever is a copy that wouldn't be sold otherwise. i do agree that this particular game may actually be worth the price, and that's why i decided to buy it, but i am a minority. you cannot expect average gamer to invest lots of his time researching the game before investing lots of his cash, it's just much easier to get on steam and get stardrive for like 22 pounds or endless space for like 15 or something and have lots of fun anyway. in my opinion, getting a deal with major digital distribution would be a win-win situation for matrix games, as it would open distant worlds to new potential playerbase.

ORIGINAL: garfield666

in my opinion, getting a deal with major digital distribution would be a win-win situation for matrix games

Your opinion is not in agreement with Matrix business analysis. They looked at Steam distribution and decided that it wouldn't be good for Matrix and Code Force.

They (Matrix) have all the facts - they know precisely how much of a cut Steam will demand, and under what conditions. You don't have any information with which to base your "Steam is the land of milk-and-honey" position.

Erik's response is clear:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3201777&mpage=5

Please stop digging up this horse to flagellate it's rotting carcass. It's dead. Long dead.

thank you very much for your opinion and the time you took to write the response, allow me just to quote mr erik's response to you from the linked thread

Kayoz, I appreciate that you helped people find past comments related to this topic. However, while you are clearly intelligent, as always more civility on your part would be appreciated both by us and other forum posters. Our goal here is to make this forum a friendly place for both newcomers to DW as well as veterans. These kinds of questions will continue to come up periodically and I understand why folks come back to them. For the record, as I noted earlier we are very open-minded about how to make Distant Worlds as successful as possible. As the publisher, we have explored other distribution options and that does include Steam (not just for this game but for other games as well). It's not the slam dunk for DW that it may appear to be at first glance, but it is an option we will keep evaluating and that door is not closed for the future. We'll always do whatever it takes to maximize the success of Distant Worlds - each decision we make is based on the evaluation of what will give it the greatest success now and in the future.

ORIGINAL: garfield666
thank you very much for your opinion and the time you took to write the response, allow me just to quote mr erik's response to you from the linked thread

Still, we just replied to your exaggerated post. No need to embellish your wants for the game.

Paradox does strategy games, that are indeed somewhat niche, but you cannot compare like you did in your previous post. Their grand strategy series are now well known and have a big fanbase. They have built that reputation with a long series of games in the same vein, the first Europa Universalis was released in 2000.

All this is off-topic anyway. You should have started a new thread, or searched for earlier threads on the same topic. Like this one for example: tm.asp?m=3201777 (edit: just that one was locked though)

Dear Erik,

I find myself a little short at the moment so if you could make sure that Shadows is not released in the next three or four months then I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you for your time.

Best wishes,
Steve

ORIGINAL: Buio
All this is off-topic anyway. You should have started a new thread, or searched for earlier threads on the same topic.

This was my fault really, but I felt the need to bring it to the forefront again in the context of the releasing of Shadows in the near future as I see it as another opportunity for Matrix to make some investments into the promotion of DW.

ORIGINAL: shunwick
I find myself a little short at the moment so if you could make sure that Shadows is not released in the next three or four months then I would very much appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.

It will tease you sitting there on the digital download shelf.

ORIGINAL: Buio

ORIGINAL: shunwick
I find myself a little short at the moment so if you could make sure that Shadows is not released in the next three or four months then I would very much appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.

It will tease you sitting there on the digital download shelf.

Buio,

I know. That's why the I would prefer it released in three or four months time. A Christmas release would be ideal.

Best wishes,
Steve

I just had to register to say that me or my friends will not buy any game not on STEAM.
Now that this is out and done with, I'd like to say a few more words.
I have followed this game for more then a year. I don't hve a problem with money.

There is no substitute for convenience STEAM offers.

As to why Matrix doesn't go there, it's of course their decision. but....

.....STEAM more and more confirms that intermediates between developers and audience are not needed. Matrix might not be needed.(EDIT: Steam is also intermediary; as are ordinary shops and other distribution chains. My sentence ment that there is maybe no need for MORE intermediaries).

Of course, putting it on STEAM would require lower price, but sales that this game would get are stupendous compared to the high price low volume it gets now.

In the end, due to pirating, this game is being played without buying it. I'm sorry to see that, but thats similar to Game of Thrones TV show...no easy and cheap access for mass audience cuts into one's profit.

I hope developers and publisher find strenght to go tht way - 30% is highest STEAM charges...there are ways for lower prices. There is Greenlight.
I will be monitoring these fora further on. and hoping steam release comes soon.

Till then, Stardrive does offer a lot!

EDIT: Oh, and why Stardrive was and is a success - open beta to preorderers. Good response policy by the programmer. Clear and sound developing diaries. Preorder for beta featured on main page of STEAM.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
.....STEAM more and more confirms that intermediates between developers and audience are not needed. Matrix might not be needed.

Perhaps you have a different definition of "intermediary" than the rest of us mud-chewing primitives - but as far as I can see, Steam is EXACTLY that.

Your logic makes no sense. Your use of the English language makes no sense.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
...but sales that this game would get are stupendous...

The basis for this statement is...? I assume you've done a market analysis to demonstrate the "stupendous" gains you claim will be made?

No? No evidence to support your claim? I thought not.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
In the end, due to pirating, this game is being played without buying it.

First off, putting a game on Steam is no impediment to pirates. Hate to burst your faith in DRM, but Steam isn't proving difficult for the pirates to crack. Putting a game on Steam, despite your implication, is no guarantee that it won't show up on TPB in a few hours.

Second, studies have shown time and time again that blaming low sales on piracy is without merit. If you have low sales for your product, it's probably because your product is crap.

If you have a rubbish game, people won't buy it - but you can always blame it on pirates. It sounds like a flawless argument to bring up to mollify your displeased investors... but the evidence doesn't support that claim.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
30% is highest STEAM charges...there are ways for lower prices.

It's beyond the scope of this forum to discuss business decisions - but the distributor's cut is only part of the decision. If you think that this is the sole basis for choosing a distributor, I can only suggest that you do some reading before you comment further on the subject.

As for your "30%" claim - Steam distribution contracts are locked behind NDAs. You don't know what the percentage is, much less what other obligations and limitations that entering into a contract with them entails. Erik does - he's negotiated with them and decided that it's not so great as you imply. That you seem to believe that you know better - in the absence of any real information - that says a great deal about your business acumen.

Im sorry to have offended. I have much of info you refer to.
Im not native english speaker but I do have bussiness relations partialy in gaming/publishing industry.
Steam is a publisher and an intermediary.
It is however biggest one in terms of sales of non-hyped products.

I will refrain from more posts and will let future prove or not what happens to this great game when it gets on STEAM.
It will though, its just a matter of time.

Just so that you know, there are people as well that will NEVER buy a game that require that STEAM crap. [:-]

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
...but I do have bussiness relations partialy in gaming/publishing industry.

I have a mate who's a dentist - but that doesn't mean you should trust me to take a drill to your teeth.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
Steam is a publisher and an intermediary.

Indeed. You said it wasn't.

*edit*
I'm still not sure of the significance of that statement.
"A walrus is a mammal and an animal" - do you know any mammals that aren't animals? Likewise, I'm not sure how, in your view, a publisher can avoid being an intermediary.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
It is however biggest one in terms of sales of non-hyped products.

Ummm... biggest in sales of "non-hyped products"? That doesn't make any sense. WalMart is a rather dominant retailer in the USA. But that doesn't mean anyone with any product will necessarily want to sell their products through them.

To put it more simply - "big" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Unless you're Ron Jeremy.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
It will though, its just a matter of time.

You sound eerily like the Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses who come knocking on my door... Such confidence. Such faith. Creepy.

If it's in the interest of Matrix and Code Force, I'm sure it'll show up on Steam in short order. Till the cost-benefit equation changes however, I can't see it happening.

Games do not REQUIRE Steam.
What was proposed is that The Game should be available through STEAM too (along other similar digital services...) but that STEAM would not be required for it.

That way everyone wins. All apetites are satisfied.

Many people don't know unfortunately, that STEAM nowadays doesn't require you to run it behind as an aplication (unless specific studio does).
You can simply run the game from it's folder.

I myself play a few games in offline mode on several of my PCs and we play MP in local LAN.same account.
Therefore being online also isn't requirement by STEAM/Valve, but by some studios that develop and publish game.

I repeat: game such as this one should be available to as wide an audience as it can be. Time will judge it more fair that way. Wider availability and consumer conformity did not stop pirating of music through Mp3 but it did help artists and their studios to sell them more through itunes store when they became available.

I never said STEAM isn't an intermediary. I simply stated that today, many games do not require an (other) intermediate in them being brought to consumers.

In the end devs/publishers choose their publication channels. Steam presently is the most viable and significant digital distribution store/platform for windows based PCs.

Hyped products like EA/Origin exclusives are what I ment. (Crysis 3, Mass effect 3...) I'm sorry if you found it too hard to grasp.

In case of smaller audience but great products - Bigger availability and visibility means better.
Paradox...Stardock....Ilwinter games...many indie studios.

The point is: DW wouldn't loose anything by appearing on STEAM. Even if they chose high prices they would still gain something....Even if they payed 30% cut to Valve - they would still sell more then now.

Which in the end is what is important - bringing viability and larger playerbase to the best single player space empire simulation game I heard of.

My sincere wish is that devs get so much money from the sales of DW that they can employ a true army of support stuff and other devs and bring all the things people ask for as soon as possible.

as to the certainty of something. well, let's say it really doesn't matter if you get creeps about it. It is in their interest (of course, under best terms possible), let us see how soon they realize that.

I presume after they see how the sales went with Shadows expansion, the Steam introduction will catch some more "steam".

Have a nice day, and again, I sincerely apologize if I touched someone's nerve (by the tone - some individuals were "touched"). I didn't intend to add insult to injury, I stated the reasons behind that.

as to the Steam bussiness model and more info about it (without disclosing and activating the fine prints in the contracts valve has with contractors) - if people are interested, one can go check Brad Wardel's posts on it in fallend enchantress Stardock forums.

He goes bones bare in many things explaining why.

See you/read you soon.

OK, lets just drop the STEAM debate please. That discussion has been argued ad nauseum and gotten nowhere. No one is going to change their mind on the topic.

I really do not want to see this thread locked due to off topic arguments. Myself and many other forum users want to be able to read about news about DW Shadows, not STEAM. So please just stop. [:)]

So when will the game release ? [:D]

And will we have a sneakpeek about how modabel the game is going to be ?
Because I have been looking around for old sprites to bring the flavor [:D]

Gr 2gun

ORIGINAL: 2guncohen
So when will the game release ? [:D]

Last I heard, Erik indicated an April release... though I'm wondering if I missed a change to that.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
Games do not REQUIRE Steam.
What was proposed is that The Game should be available through STEAM too (along other similar digital services...) but that STEAM would not be required for it.

Apologies in advance to Shark - but I'm curious about the basis for this statement.

Can you release a game through Steam -AND- through non-Steam channels? As far as I know, you can't. It is, to the best of my knowledge, exclusive. I am not aware of any games that are available as both Steam and non-Steam (non-Steam meaning that you can purchase, install and play the game without any connection to Steam services).

Leaping ahead on the assumption that you can't do so... I think that says everything about the value of Athelas' business insights.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
I myself play a few games in offline mode on several of my PCs and we play MP in local LAN.same account.

Well done. You've admitted to computer piracy. Or at the very least, a gross violation of your EULA.

Playing a game on multiple PCs at the same time -REQUIRES- multiple game purchases to cover each and every one of those PCs. Or such is the position of 2K Games.

addendum:
No further comment from me on this exhumation of this "DW on Steam" argument. Debate with a self-admitted pirate and business law genius is too much for me.