Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:30 pm**

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Not sure about defending Changsha though. With a SL of only 160k and the respawning/arrivals there I can end up massively overstacking causing major DIS among the units.

Anyone has experience with that?

Do you mean Chungking? I assume you do given use of "respawning."

SL maps, as we've discussed in PM I think, don't account for the resurrection rule at Chungking. A big negative for SLs IMO. I don't have a good answer. At Chungking you get dozens of resurrected corps, but at 1/3 TOE, and then with no supply so they're 25% of THAT AV. Crap. Add disruption too and they're crap squared.

BUT, he can do it to you himself. Just hex-surround Chungking and kill everything in the bush. It resurrects on plan and you can't get out of the city anyway. It's not in your control either way. Live with SLs, die with SLs, at least in China.

"Fixing" China has been discussed for years with various levers proposed. I personally think a bit more free organic supply in more cities, with steeper garrison reqs for both sides would go a long way to keeping the war to the east and south. Garrison reqs for Japan ought to be back-breaking in the west (Reds), and operating heavy mechanized forces through the Himalayas is just crazy. How you prevent that with pwhex files I don't know. Probably can't. But making more Japanese troops be tied to the big cities would go a long way to preventing the Great Siege all JFBs have learned to pursue.

I think DBB made a gnarly road map for China that addresses some of the movement concerns, especially for armor. This should also mean it's tougher for those Japanese bombardments to keep rolling turn after turn if their LOC was more difficult. I think there are more bases too with more garrison needs as you say.

The extra supply would be the real key though. It's just tough. I see it pretty clearly on this side, and I certainly know what to do on the other side after two games as Japan.

The SL help, and stall the progress a bit, but i's not quite enough.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:30 pm**

ORIGINAL: obvert

The extra supply would be the real key though. It's just tough. I see it pretty clearly on this side, and I certainly know what to do on the other side after two games as Japan.

The SL help, and stall the progress a bit, but i's not quite enough.

A little extra supply, and the removing of the 3x requirement in bases for China would help. Even when you have supply its crazy to have to march the army I want to defend Sian out of Sian so supply can move forward to my defensive line.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:02 pm**

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Not sure about defending Changsha though. With a SL of only 160k and the respawning/arrivals there I can end up massively overstacking causing major DIS among the units.

Anyone has experience with that?

Do you mean Chungking? I assume you do given use of "respawning."

SL maps, as we've discussed in PM I think, don't account for the resurrection rule at Chungking. A big negative for SLs IMO. I don't have a good answer. At Chungking you get dozens of resurrected corps, but at 1/3 TOE, and then with no supply so they're 25% of THAT AV. Crap. Add disruption too and they're crap squared.

BUT, he can do it to you himself. Just hex-surround Chungking and kill everything in the bush. It resurrects on plan and you can't get out of the city anyway. It's not in your control either way. Live with SLs, die with SLs, at least in China.

"Fixing" China has been discussed for years with various levers proposed. I personally think a bit more free organic supply in more cities, with steeper garrison reqs for both sides would go a long way to keeping the war to the east and south. Garrison reqs for Japan ought to be back-breaking in the west (Reds), and operating heavy mechanized forces through the Himalayas is just crazy. How you prevent that with pwhex files I don't know. Probably can't. But making more Japanese troops be tied to the big cities would go a long way to preventing the Great Siege all JFBs have learned to pursue.

I think DBB made a gnarly road map for China that addresses some of the movement concerns, especially for armor. This should also mean it's tougher for those Japanese bombardments to keep rolling turn after turn if their LOC was more difficult. I think there are more bases too with more garrison needs as you say.

The extra supply would be the real key though. It's just tough. I see it pretty clearly on this side, and I certainly know what to do on the other side after two games as Japan.

The SL help, and stall the progress a bit, but i's not quite enough.

DBB is my next mountain to climb. I haven't paid that much attention to map discussions on it, but more on the engineers and sealift.

The Himalayas cut both ways of course, and I plan to shove a bunch of mechanized through there by and by if I'm able. But that long, yellow road to Paoshan isn't tank-friendly on a fuel or parts basis.

Symon had an interesting thread on "fixing" China in the mod forum,, but it seems to have petered out. I recall his research showed China was nowhere near as naked on armament industries as in the game. Also, the "triangle" war between Japan, the Nationalists and the Reds isn't really in the game, but was really, really important, especially in Mao's areas in the west. If Japan had tried to take down those big western cities they would have died the death of a thousand cuts from partisans. That's not in the game. I am a big proponent of using garrisons to bend the situation as much as supply. Garrison reqs give the player the choice of ignoring them at their cost. I also would up the Chinese garrison reqs here and there to hold some forces out of the countryside and maintain a shred of trust with the civilian population. But they need food and clothes organically to stay in the cities. At least a trickle.

And as I said, SLs are fine except at Chungking. That rule is in the EXE and can't be bypassed. I picture a chicken coop barred shut, and the farmer dropping chickens into it through a hole in the roof until there are six feet of chickens inside. Then his evil neighbor lobbing grenades down the hole. That's Chungking with SLs and total hexside control. You can't get out, more keep coming, and the chicken depth is a pretty big disruption factor. IOW, a mess.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:53 am**

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Shouldnt you have 50-100 B17's which should be able to annoy the KB, even of it only makes him more careful.

If they are on Hawaii still, its only 3-4 steps to fly them in.

A little bit early for that. [:)] I have 32 unrestricted B17-Es and 7 "Ds". Still need about 4-6 weeks of training before I can get the "E"s into combat. Also have to get AS to OZ before I can stage them there. Already short on AS there!

It would be nice to wait until everything is perfect, I assume you have plenty of time on your side.

Getting 20-30 aircraft into the sky over KB MIGHT make him more careful, make him stand off a few more hexes, and given the JFB fear of the B17 "sweep" could chew into his fighter pools. What have you put at risk, 20-30 4E that will reappear in droves in the later years.

There are numerous comments here about "raiding" the Home Islands with your CV, putting your 4E into Australia is a much lower risk.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:50 am**

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Do you mean Chungking? I assume you do given use of "respawning."

SL maps, as we've discussed in PM I think, don't account for the resurrection rule at Chungking. A big negative for SLs IMO. I don't have a good answer. At Chungking you get dozens of resurrected corps, but at 1/3 TOE, and then with no supply so they're 25% of THAT AV. Crap. Add disruption too and they're crap squared.

BUT, he can do it to you himself. Just hex-surround Chungking and kill everything in the bush. It resurrects on plan and you can't get out of the city anyway. It's not in your control either way. Live with SLs, die with SLs, at least in China.

"Fixing" China has been discussed for years with various levers proposed. I personally think a bit more free organic supply in more cities, with steeper garrison reqs for both sides would go a long way to keeping the war to the east and south. Garrison reqs for Japan ought to be back-breaking in the west (Reds), and operating heavy mechanized forces through the Himalayas is just crazy. How you prevent that with pwhex files I don't know. Probably can't. But making more Japanese troops be tied to the big cities would go a long way to preventing the Great Siege all JFBs have learned to pursue.

I think DBB made a gnarly road map for China that addresses some of the movement concerns, especially for armor. This should also mean it's tougher for those Japanese bombardments to keep rolling turn after turn if their LOC was more difficult. I think there are more bases too with more garrison needs as you say.

The extra supply would be the real key though. It's just tough. I see it pretty clearly on this side, and I certainly know what to do on the other side after two games as Japan.

The SL help, and stall the progress a bit, but i's not quite enough.

DBB is my next mountain to climb. I haven't paid that much attention to map discussions on it, but more on the engineers and sealift.

The Himalayas cut both ways of course, and I plan to shove a bunch of mechanized through there by and by if I'm able. But that long, yellow road to Paoshan isn't tank-friendly on a fuel or parts basis.

Symon had an interesting thread on "fixing" China in the mod forum,, but it seems to have petered out. I recall his research showed China was nowhere near as naked on armament industries as in the game. Also, the "triangle" war between Japan, the Nationalists and the Reds isn't really in the game, but was really, really important, especially in Mao's areas in the west. If Japan had tried to take down those big western cities they would have died the death of a thousand cuts from partisans. That's not in the game. I am a big proponent of using garrisons to bend the situation as much as supply. Garrison reqs give the player the choice of ignoring them at their cost. I also would up the Chinese garrison reqs here and there to hold some forces out of the countryside and maintain a shred of trust with the civilian population. But they need food and clothes organically to stay in the cities. At least a trickle.

And as I said, SLs are fine except at Chungking. That rule is in the EXE and can't be bypassed. I picture a chicken coop barred shut, and the farmer dropping chickens into it through a hole in the roof until there are six feet of chickens inside. Then his evil neighbor lobbing grenades down the hole. That's Chungking with SLs and total hexside control. You can't get out, more keep coming, and the chicken depth is a pretty big disruption factor. IOW, a mess.

IMHO, with SLs China is more than defendable as it is right now (at least in DBB).
Against Mr.Kane (who is clearly a good and competent japanese player) i managed to stall him by mid 1943. Sure i lost Sian and the Changsha basin but that was all. After several months of bloody battles he simply decided it was not worth and abbandoned the idea of getting to the Chungking plains. Obviously to do that you must attack him somewhere else, so that the japanese best units are pressed to be called elsewhere, along with all the supplies, planes etc that an "all-out-china" japanese strategy needs.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:21 am**

I´m hoping to put a fighting withdrawal along that road. Its interesting that you say supply stopped you. I have never (that I can remember) seen the Japanese in China suffer from supply problems? If I remember correctly Erik broke through to the Chunking basin without a single road access. He just walked through the woods. Tom seems equally nonchalant about supply and is marching 2 IDs + 1 armor RGT straight through the woods toward Changsha.

It was the area North and West of Ankang that I had problems getting enough supply. It is also possible that if I was willing to attack without full supply I could have made better progress. Also, without refineries generating supply at Lanchow and Sian depending how much LI is lost there may be issues with supply generation in the area.

Also a bit perplexed about your opponent being able to make a stand in the clear hexes west of the woods? Standing in the open you should be able to inflict a minimum of 1500-2000 casualties per turn by bombing from the air? His DIS should be in the 80s region within a week and supply should be mostly gone by then?

I wasn't suggesting a stand but rather a counter-attack. I got the impression that when bombing large stacks of troops relatively little disruption resulted. The plains are close enough to Ledo that Lightnings are a threat to bombing so bombing has to be managed. Also there is the threat of 4E ground bombing (but I think you have a house rule that handicaps you).

A stack full of deadbeat units looks just the same from the air as one of good units. When I saw a stack of 150,000 men I couldn't tell whether it was good troops or not, the only clue is the number of guns.

I´ll give some thoughts to holding Chengtu. Not sure if something has changed in one of the later BETAs but maintaining an air bridge proved impossible in my earlier games. The transports suffered massive OPS losses even with trained pilots and 70% rest. One my game with Erik ended C-47s had suffered over 900 OPS losses flying mostly from level 9 AF to level 9 AF (India - Burma)

In my game the Allies have suffered heavy ops losses from C-47s, but it may be worth it?

Chungking, my first bombardment was on 25th October and it fell on 28th December. At the first bombardment there was about 200,000 troops, 700 guns and 3120 AV defending, forts were at 6. I had the advantage of more artillery units than Tom will have against you but used no tanks there. I think there were about 60 or 70 Chinese units that were isolated away from Chungking and not respawning.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:10 pm**

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
IMHO, with SLs China is more than defendable as it is right now (at least in DBB).
Against Mr.Kane (who is clearly a good and competent japanese player) i managed to stall him by mid 1943. Sure i lost Sian and the Changsha basin but that was all. After several months of bloody battles he simply decided it was not worth and abbandoned the idea of getting to the Chungking plains. Obviously to do that you must attack him somewhere else, so that the japanese best units are pressed to be called elsewhere, along with all the supplies, planes etc that an "all-out-china" japanese strategy needs.

Well, lets disagree on that for now shall we? [:)] Still havn´t had time to reread your AAR though and perhaps I will change my mind once I have [:)]. But I think the reason you stalled him was that he for whatever reason decided to stop fighting in China. Not because he was unable to break through.

Probably as you say he felt threatened enough on another front he decided to start sending stuff there instead of having them in China.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:25 pm**

Spidery,

While I have no real knowledge of your game I would say an Chinese counter attack in open terrain would probably be very unlikely. Most Chinese units in 42 are unfit for offensive operations and often have EXP/MRL well below 50. Especially true once supply hits the red after a couple of months. For me that usually happens in late January.

I would say you are quite misinformed about Japanese air power hitting large Chinese formations. I can assure you that the effect is quite spectacular. [:D] A clear hex is a death sentence for any Chinese troops.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:32 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Tracker.

LCUs.

Filter for Chinese.

Filter for Active.

Export to CSV.

Open in Excel, sum the column for AV.

Done [8D].

Ooookay. I´m with you up to "Excel". Then you lost me! [;)]

I´ll try tonight. Have to install excel and see if I remember anything from the late 90s. [:D]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I would say you are quite misinformed about Japanese air power hitting large Chinese formations. I can assure you that the effect is quite spectacular. [:D] A clear hex is a death sentence for any Chinese troops.

What kind of results have you seen with Sallys attacking x3 hexes?

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:39 pm**

Here is a good example of what I´m facing. Remember the rivercrossing with the Panzer Armee 5-6 days ago. This is what the stack looks like now.

Ground combat at 81,39 (near Tienshui)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1380 troops, 94 guns, 147 vehicles, Assault Value = 1771

Defending force 31992 troops, 285 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 850

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (8 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
12th Tank Regiment
110th Division
10th Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
17th Division
32nd Division
15th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
56th Chinese Corps
68th Chinese Corps
75th Chinese Corps
22nd Artillery Regiment
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
18th Artillery Regiment
Jingcha War Area
41st AA Regiment

He has almost 100k troops in the hex. SL limit is 40k. I have 38200 SL value. I can´t overstack. Not even for a minute because my supply is already in red. But he can... now add to that the armor which I am absolutely defenseless against, the constant bombing from the air which I am also defenseless against. The ground bombardments turn after turn eating up the supply and slowly causing disablements from which I will never recover.

Now add that on 3-4 more locations on the map and you get the picture of how China looks right now. [:)]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:04 pm**

Remember that once your supply is gone in the region you can over stack as you like and it will cost you nothing, because you have nothing! But it will cost him because he has supply to be taken. [:)]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:11 pm**

Severely overstacking will add extra disruption in combat.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Remember that once your supply is gone in the region you can over stack as you like and it will cost you nothing, because you have nothing! But it will cost him because he has supply to be taken. [:)]

Haha, yeah. There is always something optimistic to be found! [:D]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:22 pm**

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Severely overstacking will add extra disruption in combat.

Yes, but when one has lemons... [:D]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:26 pm**

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Severely overstacking will add extra disruption in combat.
Yes, but when one has lemons... [:D]

[:D]

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:09 pm**

[font="Verdana"] 6st of March! [/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Very little to report actually.

------------------------
China
------------------------
Bombardments continue all over the map while the airforce pound away. I think the calm will last only a day or two more.

------------------------
OZ
------------------------
Finally manage to cause some damage to the KB air wings. A newly arrived heavy AA unit arrive at Sydney. Results are quite good. On the 5th we blast away the Betties flying from the North shooting down 8 of them. Results are even better on the 6th when the KB strike.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:20 pm**

Ouch. After also recently experiencing the KB doing firebombing on Oz targets I have to say I question the tactic, at least with pre-war pilots. Three points of LI gone which can be repaired in three days for a dozen carrier planes is a bad trade to me. And you did better than that.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:21 pm**

I've noticed that the Kates seem to be much less vulnerable to flak than Vals. I find this
strange since it is a bigger aircraft and has to fly a straight line to deliver its torpedo.
I don't think it was armoured or had self-sealing fuel tanks, so what's its secret?

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:36 pm**

[font="Verdana"] State of the Chinese military [/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

First of all, thanks Loka! Worked perfectly! [&o] I crunched some numbers and its a interesting read...and unexpected.

I started out by comparing the AV from the last turn with the 1st turn. Here are the numbers.

------------------------
Raw AV
------------------------
Starting: 20322
Now: 20849
+527

------------------------
EXP
------------------------
Starting: 37,82805
Now: 35,50385
-2,3242

This one I can´t explain. Could be because of respawns? Or possibly because a lot of Corps are broken down into 3rds?

------------------------
Supply
------------------------
This one would have been the really interesting one. But the way the numbers are presented in Excel makes this beyond my skill. Instead of reporting only the actual number it reports both the actual number and the units max. So it looks like 981/718. No idea how to work with that.

I also wanted to check the supply in bases in China but you can only filter by region and not by nationality. And the only region for the allies is the entire map. [:D]

Pretty amazed I actually have increased the raw AV despite all the fighting. But in reality lack of supply have more then halved the strength. With Lanchow about to fall supply will shortly plummet and I will be getting a -90% AV reduction dooming the Chinese to annihilation.

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