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RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:10 am
by GreyJoy
ORIGINAL: castor troy
holy crap, all 8 BB at PH sunk? How many attacks did rader fly against PH back then? Have too look at your first pages me thinks...
your ship losses look horrible to be honest [X(] and even more so is it amazing to me that you nevertheless were able to land on Japan. Not having followed your AAR until the later stages I guess I have to go through your 211 pages of AAR. [:D]
Well, let's say i went through 2 very bad years[:D]
KB bombed PH for 6 days in a row...nothing was left when she sailed away...
Then yes, i tried to fight everywhere i could...but finally in 1943 the tide started to turn and we finally were able to win a couple of naval battles (At Miri, at Rekata Bay at Tulagi)..and the tables are now more or less even me thinks...
Yup, if you wanna see what really means being slapped for 18 months take a look at the first pages[:D]
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:14 am
by castor troy
hats off to you Sir, I think there are not that many people around sticking to the game suffering those losses AND still managing to land where you are now. [&o] Hats off to rader as well for inflicting those losses... [;)]
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:17 am
by obvert
hats off to you Sir, I think there are not that many people around sticking to the game suffering those losses AND still managing to land where you are now. Hats off to rader as well for inflicting those losses...
-castor troy
Yes! +1 to you both!
Most of the US CAs and CLs lost early on must have been replaced by new ones though, right? What is left in the arsenal now?
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:23 am
by HansBolter
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
ORIGINAL: castor troy
holy crap, all 8 BB at PH sunk? How many attacks did rader fly against PH back then? Have too look at your first pages me thinks...
your ship losses look horrible to be honest [X(] and even more so is it amazing to me that you nevertheless were able to land on Japan. Not having followed your AAR until the later stages I guess I have to go through your 211 pages of AAR. [:D]
Well, let's say i went through 2 very bad years[:D]
KB bombed PH for 6 days in a row...nothing was left when she sailed away...
Then yes, i tried to fight everywhere i could...but finally in 1943 the tide started to turn and we finally were able to win a couple of naval battles (At Miri, at Rekata Bay at Tulagi)..and the tables are now more or less even me thinks...
Yup, if you wanna see what really means being slapped for 18 months take a look at the first pages[:D]
Staying for extra days of attack on Pearl seems to be a pretty standard tact for Japanese players. Is there any merit to sortying (sp?) everything from Pearl in a last ditch effort to get a night intercept on the KB while scattering every ship in port to the four winds? I have had limited success with that tactic against the AI. Seems like about one in every four attempts meets with sufficient success to force the KB to limp home with carriers full of shell holes.
After all, if you're going to lose every ship in port anyway, why not go down fighting? And as for scattering, yes you will lose ships to the subs just as in the evacuation from Manila and the KB, if undamaged by the night action, will sink many of the the ships running, but at least some will have a chance to get away.
I realize it's far too late for your game, but am just wondering what all the experienced PBEMers here do when faced with a protracted Pearl Harbor strike.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:24 am
by JohnDillworth
...the worst losses are on the cruisers side...
as to the loss of surface combat ships I can only say lately you have put them in the right places to extract a price for their loss. Nelson put it better, "...
no captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy"
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:26 am
by GreyJoy
Thx for the compliments guys [:)]
Here are the today air losses...we lost 20 pilots today but Rader's must have lost at least 200 of them...
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:39 am
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I realize it's far too late for your game, but am just wondering what all the experienced PBEMers here do when faced with a protracted Pearl Harbor strike.
Propose a DaBabes rematch and watch the Japanese player bang his head against an AAA wall. [:D]
At least this would be my choice.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:53 am
by cwDeici
(edited, since I noticed Greyjoy asked us to stop talking about it)
I'll just leave here that I think the problem is the HRs make functional (mechanics) rather than substantive (assets) changes.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:54 am
by Roger Neilson II
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
ORIGINAL: castor troy
holy crap, all 8 BB at PH sunk? How many attacks did rader fly against PH back then? Have too look at your first pages me thinks...
your ship losses look horrible to be honest [X(] and even more so is it amazing to me that you nevertheless were able to land on Japan. Not having followed your AAR until the later stages I guess I have to go through your 211 pages of AAR. [:D]
Well, let's say i went through 2 very bad years[:D]
KB bombed PH for 6 days in a row...nothing was left when she sailed away...
Then yes, i tried to fight everywhere i could...but finally in 1943 the tide started to turn and we finally were able to win a couple of naval battles (At Miri, at Rekata Bay at Tulagi)..and the tables are now more or less even me thinks...
Yup, if you wanna see what really means being slapped for 18 months take a look at the first pages[:D]
Staying for extra days of attack on Pearl seems to be a pretty standard tact for Japanese players. Is there any merit to sortying (sp?) everything from Pearl in a last ditch effort to get a night intercept on the KB while scattering every ship in port to the four winds? I have had limited success with that tactic against the AI. Seems like about one in every four attempts meets with sufficient success to force the KB to limp home with carriers full of shell holes.
After all, if you're going to lose every ship in port anyway, why not go down fighting? And as for scattering, yes you will lose ships to the subs just as in the evacuation from Manila and the KB, if undamaged by the night action, will sink many of the the ships running, but at least some will have a chance to get away.
I realize it's far too late for your game, but am just wondering what all the experienced PBEMers here do when faced with a protracted Pearl Harbor strike.
Jap flattops are big targets and they are nice targets for Dds on night attack..... I'll take the trade any day (or maybe that should be any night)
Roger (evil grin)
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:57 am
by cwDeici
Good job GJ, seems you're really in your element in this kind of fight!
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:35 am
by EUBanana
ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II
Jap flattops are big targets and they are nice targets for Dds on night attack..... I'll take the trade any day (or maybe that should be any night)
Roger (evil grin)
Yeah, aggressive DD raiding. DDs at sea are very hard to hit, even if they get stamped on in the daylight hours they'll absorb some of KB's precious torpedoes and sorties.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:25 pm
by HansBolter
The American's get a fresh new cruiser at pearl on Dec. 8. I couple it with a group of destroyers as my main attack force and then build as many other DD TFs as I can (usualy 2-3 TFs of 4 DDs each). Form up three TFs of 4 PT boats each. Any CLs that survived the first day's airstrikes in reasonable enough shape to sorty also get added to the mix.
I then sorty the entire bunch into a spread pattern N to NW of Pearl in the hopes of triggering a night encounter. I also send the nearest subs to the vicinity of the KB. If the KB stays near to it's original location (which the AI deplorably does as a habit) I will get at least one intercept if not more. I realize a player is more likely to reposition the KB if he stays and reduce the American's chances of an interrcept.
Sometimes if the KB isn't staying it is still in range to hit any of these TFs left at sea the next day so there is a risk of greater ship loss if the KB isn't staying, but the risk of losing everything anyway if the KB stays and I don't sorty leads me to believe it is best to sorty.
Sorry for derailing your AAR Geyjoy, but I thought it might be helpful to discuss some of the alternatives you may not have been aware of when these events went down in your game.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:21 pm
by GreyJoy
Well Hans, i didn't know what to do at that time...my only defence during those first days was praying that he left [:D]
Ok guys, time to rotate again the "Angels of Sadogashima"....next turn the defence of the skies will be left to the P-47D-25s and to the british T-Bolts (always LRCAP), while the rest of my squadrons will be resting at Hakodate.
3 more DD Divisions will take the place of those destroyed or mauled today at Sadogashima and 2 AA Regiments should be unloading within the first day.
The runaway is open at 100% (even if the airport facilities are badly damaged), so i'm considering to send in again a couple of squadrons for a point defence CAP (yeah...i'm thinking about a couple of those british fluing circuses...[8D]).
Tomorrow the role of Pallister will be taken by Lane, who will lead a cruiser TF on the second night at Sadogashima, while the first night watch will be probably left to a New Zeland commander that will lead the CL Leander (veterans of several battles in the Solomons) and a couple of Cleveland Class CLs along with 8 DDs.
Let's see if Rader sends in his last defences...he should be running short of undamaged BBs by now...
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:27 pm
by Chickenboy
GreyJoy,
All in all, the loss of those IJN heavies makes the last turn a win for you. Anything approaching 1:1 sea losses is something you can definitely handle. In this case, I would say you came out ahead in VP too.
I think that Rader misapplied his forces there. Too large of TFs, should probably have split 'em up further, bombardment orders for ships and aircraft when his focus should have been naval intercept, etc. Your repeated SCTF intercepts likely ran his heavies out of ammunition, which he then made into an acute problem with shore bombardment.
A grinding war of attrition is definitely to your advantage at this point. If Rader compounds that with injudicious TF construction and inselective mission profiles, that will further benefit your position.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:33 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
The American's get a fresh new cruiser at pearl on Dec. 8. I couple it with a group of destroyers as my main attack force and then build as many other DD TFs as I can (usualy 2-3 TFs of 4 DDs each). Form up three TFs of 4 PT boats each. Any CLs that survived the first day's airstrikes in reasonable enough shape to sorty also get added to the mix.
I then sorty the entire bunch into a spread pattern N to NW of Pearl in the hopes of triggering a night encounter. I also send the nearest subs to the vicinity of the KB. If the KB stays near to it's original location (which the AI deplorably does as a habit) I will get at least one intercept if not more. I realize a player is more likely to reposition the KB if he stays and reduce the American's chances of an interrcept.
Sometimes if the KB isn't staying it is still in range to hit any of these TFs left at sea the next day so there is a risk of greater ship loss if the KB isn't staying, but the risk of losing everything anyway if the KB stays and I don't sorty leads me to believe it is best to sorty.
Sorry for derailing your AAR Geyjoy, but I thought it might be helpful to discuss some of the alternatives you may not have been aware of when these events went down in your game.
I imagine that GreyJoy's two day turns for this game compounded the issue. I can't imagine that his CAP was more effective (in the absence of orders) on day two of the two day turns. Likely GreyJoy was a victim of the game settings too.
The 'scramble everything approach' is easily countered by a human player. Back KB off 6 hexes and reset everything available for naval attack. Those Allied TFs that sortied will be engaged and destroyed at sea-no port facilities to prevent their sinking here. There's also no pesky CAP or port AAA to exacerbate KB bomber A2A or Flak costs. After the seas have been scrubbed, manuever KB around (possibly from a different angle) and plaster PH again. Rinse, lather, repeat.
For your 'scramble everything' approach to work, you have to have apriori knowledge of KBs location and duration there. Far better, in my opinion, to scramble everything that can sail in 1-2 ship TFs to the points of the compass and try to make a friendly port.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:52 pm
by hades1001
Actually I suffer bigger losses than GJ if you check my AAR and I'm still there[8D]
ORIGINAL: castor troy
hats off to you Sir, I think there are not that many people around sticking to the game suffering those losses AND still managing to land where you are now. [&o] Hats off to rader as well for inflicting those losses... [;)]
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:22 pm
by EUBanana
Allied masochists to the front desk, Allied masochists to the front desk on the double...
[:'(]
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:48 pm
by EUBanana
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
The 'scramble everything approach' is easily countered by a human player. Back KB off 6 hexes and reset everything available for naval attack. Those Allied TFs that sortied will be engaged and destroyed at sea-no port facilities to prevent their sinking here. There's also no pesky CAP or port AAA to exacerbate KB bomber A2A or Flak costs. After the seas have been scrubbed, manuever KB around (possibly from a different angle) and plaster PH again. Rinse, lather, repeat.
There's a certain element of scissors paper stone.
However I would raid with them set to retire, DDs can cover 8 or 9 hexes on full speed which is the full range of KBs bombers, so they can be in at night and then be back under CAP by daybreak.
Also a DD is extremely hard to hit. If KB is going to be staying by Pearl, then I'd rather have them hitting expendable, extremely difficult to hit targets than moored, easy to hit, not at all expendable targets. If your DDs are sitting in or near the Pearl hex by daybreak then not only is he wasting sorties on the expendable hard to kill things but he might be CAPped as well.
If he leaves completely and comes back after some DD chasing around the Pacific, or pulls back anticipating a major sortie (ie, he chose rock, you chose paper) the runways and the P40s will be that much more fixed and it will be more costly upon his return.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:53 pm
by Canoerebel
I did this in my game with Q-Ball. He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet. Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always. I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB. I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun. It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.
Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.
RE: Angels over Sadogashima
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:11 pm
by crsutton
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I did this in my game with Q-Ball. He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet. Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always. I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB. I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun. It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.
Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.
I have played the historical first day in both of my campaigns. But asked for a two day limit to the havoc at Pearl. That actually is plenty of time to wreck the American BB fleet. Sticking around for a week is total cheese in my book. Not to say that the Japanese player can't do it in the absence of a HR. However, it would put me of a mind to give no slack later on. Sort of sets the tone for the whole game.