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Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:10 pm**

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:07 pm
Lothos wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:52 pm
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:43 pm
What the heck?
I got a MP match going and we are recording.
So Naval Weapons is ground attack and Ground Attack is for Naval?
Jeezus.
I gotta tell my opponent. We are still in late 1939 but this bit may end the whole schmoe if this is correct.
I don't know if either of us is going to want to restart all over again as both hands have been revealed with a few things on both sides.
No, he is wrong. I just looked myself.
Can you show some screenshots to confirm please?

I looked, I am playing a game as Germany right now and I looked at Tac and Medium bombers. THey are fine, the guy is confused because I shifted some things around. He is looking at where the numbers are placed on the Nato Symbol instead of looking at what the actual text says.

Basically, he needs to read

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:23 pm**

Oh you mean where the upgrades are placed on the counter itself? I'm aware of the order change.

But game mechanic wise all is good you say and Ashfalls observations regarding Naval weapons tech and Ground attack tech is erroneous.?

Ok I hope this is true. I have been keeping close track of Duedmans (Axis) research spending. I would bet 100 Euros he has got into Ground Attack Weapons. Certain of it from watching his excellent gameplay on YT.

If things were bonkers like Ashfall described than it would screw the match terribly.

Well...I got a turn to pull. It's Winter but things are not quiet like I thought.......

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:40 am**

Lothos,

I just checked (v 1.2.1)

I have only checked on the opening turn.
So there are some situations I can not check as various nations are still at tech level 0 for one or both techs.

1. The UK planes appear to be correct in that Naval upgrade upgrades naval attack values. Can not check Ground Attack
2. Can not check USA or USSR as they both are at level 0 for those Techs.
3. IT and GE are reversed for both Naval and Ground Attack as per Ashfall's post. Screen shot added below
4. FR is reversed in that Naval upgrade increase Ground Attack values and not naval. Can not check Ground Attack.

: Air upgrade bug.jpg (267.75 KiB) Viewed 1060 times

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:53 am**

Lothos,

Is it possible that the version you put out to dropbox is/was not the finalized version of 1.2.1?

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:54 am**

Crappola.
Duedman and I are playing V 1.2.1
I just checked and indeed there is an error here big time.
These two screenshots just confirmed Ashfall and Taxman66.

Now I gotta send these to Duedman and decide what to do here. I know we won't want to kludge through this by researching Naval Weapons to get Ground Attack upgrades.

Edit: UK values are ok.
German values are reversed.
Have no idea about USSR, Italy or USA concerning this as this is a first turn test.
Conclusion Germany is fubar.

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:49 am**

Thank you guys for filling in with more details and screenshots. <3 I should have done so, but was extremely tired when I posted.

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:24 am**

I just looked and you are right in 1.2.1 they are reversed, but that was not done by me! It seems to be a bug in the EXE.

I am looking at my 1.2.2 release which has VERY MINMOR changes and it is working fine.

I will release 1.2.2 out with minor the minor fixes I made.

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am**

TRP 1.2.2 has been released

########################
# TRP 1.2.2 Europe
########################
- (Bug) Germany, fixed mechanized sprite
- (Bug) Germany, fixed some sprites that were incorrect when zoomed out
- (Bug) Italy, renamed Battle Cruiser Guilio Cesare to Giulio Cesare
- (Bug) Spain, renamed Light Cruiser Libertad to Galicia
- (Bug) Naval and Land tech for Tac and Medium bombers seems to be fixed.

- (New) All Aircraft Sub attack flat lined to either 1 or 2
- (New) Sub Air Defense set to 0
- (New) ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks
- (New) Experienced units can be reinforced above 10

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:35 pm**

Lothos wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am TRP 1.2.2 has been released

########################
# TRP 1.2.2 Europe
########################
- (Bug) Germany, fixed mechanized sprite
- (Bug) Germany, fixed some sprites that were incorrect when zoomed out
- (Bug) Italy, renamed Battle Cruiser Guilio Cesare to Giulio Cesare
- (Bug) Spain, renamed Light Cruiser Libertad to Galicia
- (Bug) Naval and Land tech for Tac and Medium bombers seems to be fixed.

- (New) All Aircraft Sub attack flat lined to either 1 or 2
- (New) Sub Air Defense set to 0
- (New) ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks
- (New) Experienced units can be reinforced above 10

Thanks for quick action here. I just tested.
Duedman and I will restart.
Also we liked the Experienced unit change and the rest.
Ashfall was right. He's been around the block and knows what he's saying
on the forums.....

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:25 pm**

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:35 pm Thanks for quick action here. I just tested.
Duedman and I will restart.
Also we liked the Experienced unit change and the rest.
Ashfall was right. He's been around the block and knows what he's saying
on the forums.....

Appreciate this a lot, thank you.

I -really- should have provided more specific feedback (version, nation tested, screenshots) though! It's very hard to pinpoint and replicate from the sort of general statement I made there. Glad you guys helped out.

Lothos wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am TRP 1.2.2 has been released

########################
# TRP 1.2.2 Europe
########################
- (Bug) Germany, fixed mechanized sprite
- (Bug) Germany, fixed some sprites that were incorrect when zoomed out
- (Bug) Italy, renamed Battle Cruiser Guilio Cesare to Giulio Cesare
- (Bug) Spain, renamed Light Cruiser Libertad to Galicia
- (Bug) Naval and Land tech for Tac and Medium bombers seems to be fixed.

- (New) All Aircraft Sub attack flat lined to either 1 or 2
- (New) Sub Air Defense set to 0
- (New) ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks
- (New) Experienced units can be reinforced above 10

Awesome work Lothos, thanks! The mod is looking super interesting, can't wait to try it out.

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:49 pm**

ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks? Can you be more specific regarding this change and why?

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 12:12 am**

Raptor341 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:49 pm ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks? Can you be more specific regarding this change and why?

You can read earlier posts in this thread.

I flat lined it, the ASW tech is not needed for aircraft anymore. All planes start with a 1 or 2 sub attack and a sub has 0 air defense. So they will always do some damage to the sub and the sub can not fire back.

Adding ASW to planes leads to more and more damage and in the end game if your ASW tech is at 5 you can literally one shot subs. Increasing subs air defense leads to the problem that they can then damage planes, which is not really accurate as they had extremely limited air defenses. By doing what I did, planes can damage subs and not be hit back and subs will not get one shoted by planes.

ASW is now for ships only.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:47 am**

Thank you for the quick reply. Having not yet played the mod I suppose I should reserve criticism until after I've played but I found that the ASW change regarding aircraft caught my attention. As I am sure you are aware, increasing ASW technology (radar, MAD, homing torpedos) significantly increased the effectiveness of Allied ASW efforts (and Japanese to a lesser extent) over the course of the war. I always found that the ability of submarines to damage aircraft was more than offset by the ability of upgraded ASW aircraft to damage then, which is in line with history for the most part. Aircraft did indeed take losses to submarine AAA, but more importantly than that, at least, is that aircraft are responsible for nearly 50% of U-boat losses. By late in the war a high percentage of U-boats that sailed were lost to various sources, the U-boats had all but lost the battle.

So, in-game, would it perhaps be better to allow ASW tech to aircraft up to a point, like say max level 3? And in return, submarines to have increased AA tech up to say level 2? My concern is that without allowing for aircraft ASW upgrades the ASW technology war in the air is really not very accurately simulated (starting with limitations and building in effectiveness throughout the war). I would also argue that Maritime Patrol units should keep ASW tech upgrades, but other aircraft unit types cannot use them as a way to simulate purpose-built ASW aircraft.

Side note, really interested in the mod. I've been looking for a realism mod to address some of the major issues with the way regular SC3 plays, having normally used the Fall Weiss mod as my go-to. I'll be installing it and testing it shortly.

(Also, as a naval aviator, I'm just really passionate about ASW and ASW history

)

Cheers

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:52 am**

Also, what are your thoughts to as simulating the operational risk faced by maritime patrol aircraft by having a random chance of strength loss every turn (low, but still there)? The same could also be done for submarines, however they are already effected by storm strength loss and that works well to simulate to same for submarines.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:34 am**

Raptor341 wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:52 am Also, what are your thoughts to as simulating the operational risk faced by maritime patrol aircraft by having a random chance of strength loss every turn (low, but still there)? The same could also be done for submarines, however they are already effected by storm strength loss and that works well to simulate to same for submarines.

I am limited to what the game engine can do. Please go over the notes in the first thread and the write up and you can read through this thread. Most of your questions will be answered.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:37 am**

Raptor341 wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:47 am Thank you for the quick reply. Having not yet played the mod I suppose I should reserve criticism until after I've played but I found that the ASW change regarding aircraft caught my attention. As I am sure you are aware, increasing ASW technology (radar, MAD, homing torpedos) significantly increased the effectiveness of Allied ASW efforts (and Japanese to a lesser extent) over the course of the war. I always found that the ability of submarines to damage aircraft was more than offset by the ability of upgraded ASW aircraft to damage then, which is in line with history for the most part. Aircraft did indeed take losses to submarine AAA, but more importantly than that, at least, is that aircraft are responsible for nearly 50% of U-boat losses. By late in the war a high percentage of U-boats that sailed were lost to various sources, the U-boats had all but lost the battle.

So, in-game, would it perhaps be better to allow ASW tech to aircraft up to a point, like say max level 3? And in return, submarines to have increased AA tech up to say level 2? My concern is that without allowing for aircraft ASW upgrades the ASW technology war in the air is really not very accurately simulated (starting with limitations and building in effectiveness throughout the war). I would also argue that Maritime Patrol units should keep ASW tech upgrades, but other aircraft unit types cannot use them as a way to simulate purpose-built ASW aircraft.

Side note, really interested in the mod. I've been looking for a realism mod to address some of the major issues with the way regular SC3 plays, having normally used the Fall Weiss mod as my go-to. I'll be installing it and testing it shortly.

(Also, as a naval aviator, I'm just really passionate about ASW and ASW history )

Cheers

I know history, please no need to go over it with me. I been modding over 20 years specifically World War 2.

Their are game engine decisions as to why ASW was flat lined for planes. It was the only way to make it so sub can not hit planes back. If you raise ASW and do not raise the air defense of subs (as I already stated) you can do massive damage (and even one shot) subs. If you raise a subs ability to defend itself against planes then you have a situation were subs can hit planes.

Because I am limited to what the game engine can handle this was the only solution to the problem.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:07 am**

Lothos wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am TRP 1.2.2 has been released

########################
# TRP 1.2.2 Europe
########################
- (Bug) Germany, fixed mechanized sprite
- (Bug) Germany, fixed some sprites that were incorrect when zoomed out
- (Bug) Italy, renamed Battle Cruiser Guilio Cesare to Giulio Cesare
- (Bug) Spain, renamed Light Cruiser Libertad to Galicia
- (Bug) Naval and Land tech for Tac and Medium bombers seems to be fixed.

- (New) All Aircraft Sub attack flat lined to either 1 or 2
- (New) Sub Air Defense set to 0
- (New) ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks
- (New) Experienced units can be reinforced above 10

Thanks for the fixes - and the 3D sprite

I also like being able to reinforce units to 11. Overstrength is such a core part of these Panzer General like titles it really felt odd without it.

But I got 2 questions:
Are successes in diplomacy lowered compared to vanilla? Otherwise it should be easy for the Axis to get Spain or Turkey into the war because there are double the turns?

And secondly - is there a list or manual of some sort that lists the changes of game concepts? Like LR research not increasing spotting range, no 2 hex spotting for land units, movement type of units (mobile corps can cross through woods as if those were flat - who else can? does it work for swamps and mountains too?)

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:14 am**

Duedman wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:07 am
Lothos wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am TRP 1.2.2 has been released

########################
# TRP 1.2.2 Europe
########################
- (Bug) Germany, fixed mechanized sprite
- (Bug) Germany, fixed some sprites that were incorrect when zoomed out
- (Bug) Italy, renamed Battle Cruiser Guilio Cesare to Giulio Cesare
- (Bug) Spain, renamed Light Cruiser Libertad to Galicia
- (Bug) Naval and Land tech for Tac and Medium bombers seems to be fixed.

- (New) All Aircraft Sub attack flat lined to either 1 or 2
- (New) Sub Air Defense set to 0
- (New) ASW tech removed from all air unit type attacks
- (New) Experienced units can be reinforced above 10
Thanks for the fixes - and the 3D sprite
I also like being able to reinforce units to 11. Overstrength is such a core part of these Panzer General like titles it really felt odd without it.

But I got 2 questions:
Are successes in diplomacy lowered compared to vanilla? Otherwise it should be easy for the Axis to get Spain or Turkey into the war because there are double the turns?

And secondly - is there a list or manual of some sort that lists the changes of game concepts? Like LR research not increasing spotting range, no 2 hex spotting for land units, movement type of units (mobile corps can cross through woods as if those were flat - who else can? does it work for swamps and mountains too?)

Diplomacy is almost the same as vanilla but you can't manipulate certain countries and none of the majors (exception Vichy). It is not as powerful as you think it is.

The first post in the thread covers some of the major changes. The forest costing 1 movement point is the same in Vanilla. You can not set the terrain movement point costs at the unit level. The editor does not allow it. It is the same cost for all units.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:26 am**

Lothos:
1) FYI, Vanilla's solution is to limit the max ASW values on CVL and Maritime Bombers to 3, while DDs and MTBs can go the full 5.

2) Have you modified the Dive Chance formula for subs in TRP? The vanilla game is (IIRC) 40% + 10% per Advanced Sub - 10% per ASW (on attacking unit). If Dive Chance increases per sub Tech, and planes have no ASW to counter, subs will become untouchable by planes.

Dudeman:
TRP reduced the max chit investment limit to 2 per country. So for the time where the UK stands alone they can only be out chitted by 2 instead of 3, thus reducing the per turn chance of scoring a success.

I'm not aware of one, just have to go over the various change logs. Would be nice to have a summary of them, but that would be work.

Also FYI, HQs have a Spotting range of 3. However in short it means do not neglect building FTRs for you need them for spotting as well as their other roles. Allied players note: Canada has 1 FTR and South Africa 2 available to be built.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 12:40 pm**

Ah yes, 2 Diplochits only. That's what I meant thanks. In vanilla you could get a 25% advantage with Axis once France is out.

I was super sure I saw my mobile Infantry Corps crossing woods with no terrain penalty when playing 1.20 singleplayer.
Got no save at hand to doublecheck tho.

Still do not like the reasoning behind passive fighterspotting.
You say Lothos, that you want to make air superiority be important because its necessary for scouting.
But the opposite is the case! It just isn't.
Level 0 SU fighters can comfortably fly to the frontline, spot 5 hexes deep and fly back to safety.

If you want air superiority to matter you should shrink fighter passive scouting to 2 and increase mission range for active recon flights. With that you would force players to invest in fighters because especially SU would be either totally blind or suffer huge losses when scouting with their low level fighters.

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