Matrix Games Forums

I did not realize that warship routing and transit was also routinely coming from electronic eavesdropping, except for the IJN subs regularly reporting their locations; I had heard that before. Thanks for correcting my error, Spence. I'll have to check out the TROMS. Any specific examples you can think of?

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Besides the Shinano, CV Unryu was ambushed based on SIGINT detailing route, time and escort. USS England earned its ASW "world's record" based on SIGINT which specified where the IJN subs were supposed to take up station on a scouting line. Submarines I-4, I-28, I-34 and I-73 were all sunk by subs based on SIGINT. The USS Tautog, which was positioned in hopes of attacking Shokaku due to SIGINT and sank I-28, sighted several other IJN subs retiring from the Coral Sea battle and attacked another one but missed.

To amplify just a bit on Joe’s post, it is quite true that any “historical” game breaks down as soon as any player makes an ahistorical decision. The main idea for the scope and development of things, is that it took “time” to develop new technologies and procedures (often years) and so the general trend of doctrine and utilization will follow that which was established and internalized by the respective combatants.

There will be some peripheral doctrinal and tactical opportunities available to both sides in the conflict (based solely on late 20th century hindsight) but nothing that changes the fundamental juxtaposition of forces, or the fundamental disproportion of resources.

The game does not contemplate unfolding history and attempts to view it that way will always be doomed to irrelevance. What the game can do is give some degree of flexibility to the players so they won’t be so constrained by a “strict IRL interpretation”. In this regard, your Essex carriers (and others) can be renamed, when under construction, so that you can get a new Essex “Saratoga”, or whatever, depending on who was sunk.

As to CORONET, or OLYMPIC, they never happened. So what if the game system wants to play them out. Nobody, has any idea about who, what, where, when, why, did anything in support of those ops. Nobody in the whole universe “KNOWS” what would have happened (very sorry, I’m beginning to sound like el Someone). Pushing the end date out just gives the Japanese some additional room for accommodating the peripheral doctrinal and tactical opportunities they may have; basically, how far could they have pushed it.

Will we be able to model troop withdrawals from the theatre in the editor?

I'm specifically thinking of Stalin pulling troops out to send to the Eastern Front. Kind of a British Ship Withdrawal thing for land forces.

Yes.

Yes.

[:D][:D]

Will the editor accept non-ASCII standard characters? For instance, É/é for French ship names.

No.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No.

Ahhh, c'est la vie...

Que sera, sera...[;)]

ORIGINAL: JWE

To amplify just a bit on Joe’s post, it is quite true that any “historical” game breaks down as soon as any player makes an ahistorical decision. The main idea for the scope and development of things, is that it took “time” to develop new technologies and procedures (often years) and so the general trend of doctrine and utilization will follow that which was established and internalized by the respective combatants.

There will be some peripheral doctrinal and tactical opportunities available to both sides in the conflict (based solely on late 20th century hindsight) but nothing that changes the fundamental juxtaposition of forces, or the fundamental disproportion of resources.

The game does not contemplate unfolding history and attempts to view it that way will always be doomed to irrelevance. What the game can do is give some degree of flexibility to the players so they won’t be so constrained by a “strict IRL interpretation”. In this regard, your Essex carriers (and others) can be renamed, when under construction, so that you can get a new Essex “Saratoga”, or whatever, depending on who was sunk.

As to CORONET, or OLYMPIC, they never happened. So what if the game system wants to play them out. Nobody, has any idea about who, what, where, when, why, did anything in support of those ops. Nobody in the whole universe “KNOWS” what would have happened (very sorry, I’m beginning to sound like el Someone). Pushing the end date out just gives the Japanese some additional room for accommodating the peripheral doctrinal and tactical opportunities they may have; basically, how far could they have pushed it.

But since we do have plans drawn up, we do have a basic OOB that would have taken place in Operation downfall. Most of the assets for it were already in theatre, except for elements of Tiger Force, the 8th Air Force and a couple of US divisions transferred in from Europe. While Germany may have been defeated, there really weren't that many combat units transferred, due to garrisoning requirements in Europe.

The Japanese OOB would have been more or less set at this point, as they simply could not move troops in to the HI from far away bases at this point. The hard part here would be accurately modeling the amount of civilian resistance. Allied sources feared this would be a high number of additional Militia (for lack of a better description) and would have been a reason for extreme casualties on both sides.

In the end it is probably best left up to a mod. Pushing the end date out without providing an OOB for it gains us nothing. Also you have the point that most games, be they against the AI or PBEM are decided before this point. I supposed if you had 2 well matched players, then Operation Downfall could come into play, but how often does that happen?

Once again it seems I am playing both sides of the argument. [:D]

I think there were something like 2 US Army divisions with limited or no European combat time that were en route to the Pacific theatre when the war ended. But many, many more were supposed to go if Downfall had been launched.

I'd prefer to see it as a stand-alone scenario, but who knows what'll happen...

The instant a player gives an order contrary to one that historically happened, the game becomes uncontrollable and unpredictable, and the war as it happened is unlikely to happen. The idea isn't to prevent "ahistorical" outcomes, as those are inevitable, but to allow players to game out their scenarios within a framework of extreme plausibility.

IMHO, it would be pretty implausible if the Allies were to simiply disband their mobilized armies in Europe in the face of a still-strong Japan in 1945 or 1946 (depending on how well the game has gone for a Japanese player). Then again, during a full WitP AE game, extremely pro-Japanese circumstances probably would have called for reinforcements earlier and less focus on a "Germany First" strategy.

There are ways, theoretically, to make the game more "adaptively plausible" instead of following a rigid and implausible framework. I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

But I suspect that this sort of thing is OTS and should be reserved for a future project.

(I should note that I'm writing this after staying up all night, so I might be, er, rambling incoherently a bit.. )

ORIGINAL: Alikchi
I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

Of course such reinforcements should give allies severe victory point penalty - as these units would be taken from Europe, slowing the pace of operations against Germany, giving more land postwar to Soviets.

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: Alikchi
I think it would be interesting to model Allied reinforcements from other theatres based on the Japanese victory point level, their ownership of bases, etc. IE, if Japan captures Hawaii, the US gains several divisions earmarked for Torch.. et cetera.

Of course such reinforcements should give allies severe victory point penalty - as these units would be taken from Europe, slowing the pace of operations against Germany, giving more land postwar to Soviets.

Well, not as severe as using the atomic bomb, I think, but that is definitely a thought - I'm too tired to decide whether that's a good idea or not. Still, I think we can agree that a workable system to model realistic reinforcements based on the state of the war between the Allies and Japan could be designed.

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE
 
If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast
 
or Allies invade
HI
 
Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.
 
We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.
 
e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve
 
28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden
 
These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...
 
Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)
 
44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown
 
And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut )) )
 
Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply
 
Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.
 
Andy
 
 

p.s. invade West Coast you get 2 US Corps HQ's about 4 Divs and the 12th Manitoba Dragoons

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE

If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast

or Allies invade
HI

Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.

We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.

e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve

28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden

These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...

Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)

44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown

And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut )) )

Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply

Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.

Andy

OMG! I love you guys [&o] That is excellent!

This editor is going to be fantastic. I'll be able to do some ridiculous things with it.

Would it be possible to bring in Air or Naval reinforcements like this as well?

Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Alikchi-san! Welcome back!

Thank you Gary!! How've you been, sir? [:)]

Will it be possible to alter or extend the timeframe of a scenario in the editor? IE, have the war begin in December 41, and last until 1948? Or 1930-36?

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Something similar to what you are proposing is in AE

If the Japanese invade
North India
South Australia
NZ
West Coast

or Allies invade
HI

Then ahistoric forces are added to either side and this is fully exposed int he editor e.g. dont like this rule 2 minutes in the editor and its not a problem.

We tried to be carefull which forces we used for this especially for the allies as their are some consequences we wanted to minimise.

e.g. invade NZ and the allies recieve

28th (Maori) Bn
2nd NZ Div Cav
4th, 5th and 6th NZ Bdes at Aden
51st Highland Div (Capetown - in transit to ME and assumed to be diverted but set to withdraw in time for Sicily)
and an Army Tank Bde at Aden

These forces still need to get to NZ but at least additional forces are en route...

Invade Astralia SOUTH of Brisbane (Have to allow the Japanese some expansion room without consequences)

44th British Div (In transit round the cape at the likely time)
A British Para Bde at London (still mulling that one over)
9th Aus Div is accelerated at Aden
SA Ard Bde and a Rhodesian Inf Bde Gp arrive at Capetown

And India from Delhi North (Again South India is consequence free)
XXI Corps HQ
6th Ind Div
8th Ind Div is accelerated
56th British Div (but withdraws for Sicily)
251st Ard Bde (very low on tanks)
13th Legion Demi Bde (because I felt like it.....it will probably not make the final cut )) )

Plus in each case the allies get a one time injection of appropriate squads, devices and supply

Japan recieves a force of about 10 Divs if the HI is invaded early sprad over the HI.

Andy

Very nice - thanks guys!!! [&o][&o][&o]

BTW, are there any similar industry increases for Allies if Japan is more succesfull than it was in history (i.e. will there be any more aircraft squadrons available for example)?


Leo "Apollo11"