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I think that we should move back to the 18th.  This is the day before he moved out from Iwo Jima.  It would give me four days to shift fighters and be in better shape...

This exchange just occurred between us:
 
I just PM'd Brian about the Mod but everyone is telling me that though the Jack and later the George are naval fighters they are NOT carrier fighters.  It isn't a big surprise but it has served to massively confuse me.  Going back one turn is OK BUT I will be highly vulnerable due to shifting six Daitai of Jacks over to something less lethal.  [/align] [/align]If we could agree on a 'hold fast' order for our Fleets for--say Sept 21 (1 turn back) to Sept 24--then that might work.  Four game turns should be enough for me to get things shifted and then we can decide who rules the Pacific in 1943.  What do you think of that?[/align] [/align][blockquote]
----- Original Message ----- [/align]From: ropersfive@aol.com [/align]To: jrc_3@msn.com [/align]Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:19 AM[/align]Subject: Re: Important Note[/align]
[/align]I'm still not sure I understand, but I'm inclined to proceed as is.

As far as I know, the only planes you can put on a CV are "carrier-capable" planes.  If your Jacks are carrier-capable, then so be it.  Let's proceed, because we had no house rule against it.

If you put non-carrier-capable planes on a CV, then yes, that's not kosher.  I don't know how you would even do that.  In that event, let's back up a single turn.

Calling things gamey or not is really difficult.  In the first place, what if you know something wasn't done, but your opponent doesn't.  Remember when you said flying LRCAP over carriers was gamey?  I had no idea.  You were basing that call on your knowlege and experience, something I didn't have.  (Later, somebody pointed out that Americans did use LRCAP over carriers, so it wasn't gamey anyhow).

Same thing about refueling at a level one port; I had no idea.

On the other hand, you stripped units from China early to see what you might do with them elsewhere.  Nothing gamey about that in my opinion; it's simply trying something different and within the rules.

I thought your bombing the Australia merchant fleet out of existence was a bit questionable.  In real life, the Aussies would have sent those ships south out of harm's way, but the map prevented me from doing that.  So you trapped them in a corner and hammered them in a way that wasn't realistic, but was forced on us by map edges.  But nothing in the rules to prevent that, so I had to take my medicine.

So, if Jacks are carrier-capable, proceed.  If they aren't, then I don't know how you even did what you did and I'd agree we need to back up one turn.

I think that if Dan and I did this things would be OK.  Move back to the previous turn and then hold 3 seems reasonable enough.
 [/blockquote]

We all know that Jacks weren't carrier capable.  I'm sure they didn't have tail hooks.  I'd recommend that, regardless of whether or if you decide to go back x number of turns, I'd remove the Jacks.  Modify (delay) your plans and make things right.

This is quite a civilized war you chaps are having. [:)]

It reminds me of those two super-polite Disney chipmunks..."after you"..."no, after you"..."uh uh, after you, I insist" [;)]

Unloading the Jacks seems the best solution. The next thing you know, the Yanks will be wanting to base B-25's on the Hornet.

As far as I know, the only planes you can put on a CV are "carrier-capable" planes.

i think this is the problem: you can load any (single-engine) planes you want onto a carrier - you can fly them OFF, but unless they are carrier capable, you can't land them on the carrier again

Carriers make nice aircraft transports, and were sometimes used this way in the course of real events, such as the flights of Spitfires off the Wasp(?) to Malta.

Dan and I got it settled.  We backed up to the 20th so orders are written for the 21st.  I just combed through my training Daitai in China and changed their AC to something else to increase my A3a pool.  Went back to Saipan and changed out all of the Jacks.
 
We have a 'stand fast' order in place until the 24th and then all Hell can break loose.  It IS a civilized war cap Mandrake!  [:D]
 
Man did we all have a miscommunication!  I wasn't aware that the planes would fly AT ALL from the decks and thought everyone understood what I was doing/planning.  I've got a headache and have wasted half the day wrestling with this.
 
Thanks again everyone!
 

Enough with the headaches!  Let's see some turns run here! 

Good, now that this is sorted would you guys PLEASE get back to beating eachother to death [:D] 

Just got the 21st turn done and sent.
 
Dan's CV headed back towards Iwo Jima, my CS TF did not get creamed, and I started exchanging Jacks for A6M3a/Zeke airframes as fast as possible.  Would like to have more Zekes so we'll see what might be possible by the time we get to the end of the 24th.
 
No excitment on the board.  Dan might be trying to come after Hanoi again but I am stronger there now then when he attacked before.  Things seem rather calm at the moment...
 
 
 

Good Lord.  I should have known it wouldn't be this easy.  Dan is now peeved that he doesn't get the 2 CS and DD sunk in their suicide charge when they acted contrary to orders...
 
Has anyone chimed in on his AAR who understands what happened today?
 
Grrrr...  [:@][:@][:@]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Good Lord.  I should have known it wouldn't be this easy.  Dan is now peeved that he doesn't get the 2 CS and DD sunk in their suicide charge when they acted contrary to orders...

Has anyone chimed in on his AAR who understands what happened today?

Grrrr...  [:@][:@][:@]

Pah! I killed the Marblehead and the Stinking Boise on turn 1 prior to a restart with GoodBoyLaddie. Both of those stinking ships are still alive and kicking in our restarted game. [:D]

No complaints from meeeeee on it - but I am plotting and scheaming to get even (bwa-ha-ha-ha).

I'm going to give my thoughts but may regret it... I think you made a mistake in thinking these aircraft were available for carriers, Dan has agreed to turn the clock back (someone I would like to play in the future as he is a honest guy) if this was me (everyone is different) I would be willing to lose the CS + escort as a good gesture as I had been dealt (good gesture) one recently. Plus in the real time they've already been hit (maybe lost) anyway...
 
Just my thoughts...

I wrote him about an hour ago saying the exact same thing.  He wanted to still try the dead turn and I refused.  It took me FOREVER to shift the air groups over to appropriate aircraft.  Drove me nuts doing it and so I told him if he wanted me to scuttle them or sending them charging right at him I would--just no re-run of the turn that never was...
 

I've been enjoying the dual AARs a lot.
 
I would think that at the very least the ships in question should be left out of the upcoming Operation.  If the CS TF soaked up some airstrikes that could have hit the KB, I'd not be happy if I was Canoerebel.

I don't see any need to sacrifice ships which hared off ( not at your command ). IF you had sent them in by your command then I think you should sacrifice them but they went off cause of a bug. I don't see why you should get punished again for that when you've gone back by several days.
 
I think the trade-off will be that one day when everything goes badly for him and he needs a redo you'll have to lose some minor victories in the run-up too. Over the course of the game it'll balance out.

I've offered redos periodically to Dan (like off the Marshalls when Wasp sank without ANY CAP!) but he refused.  We'll see.  Nemo I concur with your position.  I didn't send them in to be killed.  The game did that and not me...
 

id have to agree with his that you parking and trapping his ships in a map corner was major gameyness. honestly, we all look for some glimmer of fair play in the game, doing things that ARE OBIVIOUSLY wrong is gamey, you exploited the map limitations to your own advantage. If I was your opponent, id say take your chances ;} if they dont fly you die.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This exchange just occurred between us:

I just PM'd Brian about the Mod but everyone is telling me that though the Jack and later the George are naval fighters they are NOT carrier fighters.  It isn't a big surprise but it has served to massively confuse me.  Going back one turn is OK BUT I will be highly vulnerable due to shifting six Daitai of Jacks over to something less lethal.  [/align] [/align]If we could agree on a 'hold fast' order for our Fleets for--say Sept 21 (1 turn back) to Sept 24--then that might work.  Four game turns should be enough for me to get things shifted and then we can decide who rules the Pacific in 1943.  What do you think of that?[/align] [/align][blockquote]
----- Original Message ----- [/align]From: ropersfive@aol.com [/align]To: jrc_3@msn.com [/align]Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:19 AM[/align]Subject: Re: Important Note[/align]
[/align]I'm still not sure I understand, but I'm inclined to proceed as is.

As far as I know, the only planes you can put on a CV are "carrier-capable" planes.  If your Jacks are carrier-capable, then so be it.  Let's proceed, because we had no house rule against it.

If you put non-carrier-capable planes on a CV, then yes, that's not kosher.  I don't know how you would even do that.  In that event, let's back up a single turn.

Calling things gamey or not is really difficult.  In the first place, what if you know something wasn't done, but your opponent doesn't.  Remember when you said flying LRCAP over carriers was gamey?  I had no idea.  You were basing that call on your knowlege and experience, something I didn't have.  (Later, somebody pointed out that Americans did use LRCAP over carriers, so it wasn't gamey anyhow).

Same thing about refueling at a level one port; I had no idea.

On the other hand, you stripped units from China early to see what you might do with them elsewhere.  Nothing gamey about that in my opinion; it's simply trying something different and within the rules.

I thought your bombing the Australia merchant fleet out of existence was a bit questionable.  In real life, the Aussies would have sent those ships south out of harm's way, but the map prevented me from doing that.  So you trapped them in a corner and hammered them in a way that wasn't realistic, but was forced on us by map edges.  But nothing in the rules to prevent that, so I had to take my medicine.

So, if Jacks are carrier-capable, proceed.  If they aren't, then I don't know how you even did what you did and I'd agree we need to back up one turn.

I think that if Dan and I did this things would be OK.  Move back to the previous turn and then hold 3 seems reasonable enough.
[/blockquote]

I am truly impartial on this issue, other than being sorry to see such a fun and interesting game hit a mechanical snag.  I mostly don't want either of you to become upset and have the game end on bad terms.
 
"Do overs" are always controversial in my mind.  It's always so hard to try to cover all of the what if's.  My suggestion would be to take the original turn, with any mistakes that were made, and play it out. 
 
This is not a criticism, so please don't take it as such, John.  From my perspective, you made a mistake when you loaded the Jacks on your carriers.  You did not realize all the implications of this (not realistic being way down on my list, if the mod were allowing it intentionally).  You were also not aware that they may not fly combat missions from the carriers.  You made the moves and then ended your turn and sent it to Dan.  I've made bonehead moves that I regretted, once I ended my turn and emailed it.  I think at that point you just have to steel yourself to accept the results, learn from the mistake, and become a better player. 
 
From Dan's perspective, you made a mistake, but ended the turn, so he should not have to give up the small progress he has made (eating your stray TF) so you can correct the mistake.  I know that that TF ended up on it's own due to the irrational behavior of the game, but this has happened to all of us many times without replaying the turn, and I'm sure it has happened in this game in the past.  I understand that it is a little more complicated than that, but that is how it appears to him.   It's very possible (and likely since both you and Dan are mature adults [;)]) that you guys can reach some kind of mutually acceptable arrangement for the "do over".  In my opinion the best way to keep up the integrity of the game would be to just ride out the initial turn, with the Jacks, and then correct the situation by replacing them with Zeros afterward.  I'm sure that would not be the most satisfying solution from your side, but I think it might be the best solution to keep up the spirit of the game.  [:)]
 
I probably should not have even opened my mouth, and I'll go back to eating my popcorn and enjoying the show that you guys are so graciously and capably sharing with all of us.  I hope a solution that makes both of you is reached soon.  I want to see blood in the water!  [:D]
 
 

Whoever contributed to Dan's AAR thank you very much.  He now understands what happened and we are good on all accounts.  We move forward so the war can go on after hitting this snag. 
 
Will share more when the boys are sleeping.
 

USS America:  It is always good when you emerge out from under your pile of popcorn!  [:D]
 
We'll get back to the action starting tomorrow.  Must provide a word of warning though.  Dan is leaving for a week's vacation on Friday night and my family and I are taking off for the weekend as well.
 
I plan to use the week off to do comprehensive evaluation of the campaign.  Hopefully a lot of you guys can jump in a provide some thoughts and perspective.