RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:04 am
I thought Jon had said, once the mud hits, he was just going to "sort" of skip though the mud turns and wait for the snow to hit, before getting back into detail posting ?
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OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:26 pm
(BAR) Well you asked why Kleist pushed so far east. Its for this rail loop. He pushed east to secure it, and the rail repair is going forward. There was alot of air supply going on during the mud weeks. I saved my transports this hole time just for this...The key is railheads, because I'm running at half the trucks that I need...Kleist will still be a thorn in the Soviets flesh...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:56 pm
Jon
[font="verdana"]Kleist's Pz A looks to be in really good shape for the coup [/font][font="verdana"]de [/font][font="verdana"]gr[/font][font="verdana"]â[/font][font="verdana"]ce. [/font][font="verdana"]
There's been a lot of change to the front lines around Kleist's positions, and to the Soviet forces.[/font] [font="verdana"]I assume they pulled back? This makes me even more [/font][font="verdana"]eager than usual[/font][font="verdana"] to see what's happene[/font]d to the North and SE of the main event over these last few weeks! Can we have a BAR of the situation around Moscow, please...
[font="verdana"]Kleist's Pz A looks to be in really good shape for the coup [/font][font="verdana"]de [/font][font="verdana"]gr[/font][font="verdana"]â[/font][font="verdana"]ce. [/font][font="verdana"]
There's been a lot of change to the front lines around Kleist's positions, and to the Soviet forces.[/font] [font="verdana"]I assume they pulled back? This makes me even more [/font][font="verdana"]eager than usual[/font][font="verdana"] to see what's happene[/font]d to the North and SE of the main event over these last few weeks! Can we have a BAR of the situation around Moscow, please...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:22 pm
(AAR) Well I left the pockets rot on the vine for two weeks and they fell after two weeks of attacks. I lied, I did some attacks in the mud for position... The party started (frost hit), railheads moved forward, supply is good, and everyone blasted forward...I moved fighters all around Moscow to knock down any air supply help. I think the prize is in hand soon...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:04 pm
OKH issued the plans for the winter. Press the Soviets, there on there heels, and run with it. This may open a spring offense at Gorky...I still have eyes for Leningrad, Armin's corps is itching for battle...Yaroslavl and Ivanovo are such great prizes I have to go for them...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:33 pm
It will be interesting to see how strongly the AI reacts to the Moscow problem. Watch your flanks!
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:48 pm
I think Jon's got the AI bamboozled - it won't know whether to try to break into Moscow or pull back from the near encirclement behind Moscow.
At least my prediction made back in post 46something has been proved to be correct; although I think Jon will have more serviceable panzers than I predicted- I think he has rotated them much better that I do.
I think the soviet back is well and truly broken, GAIA may stage a slight recovery during the Blizzard, but I can't see her stopping the Axis getting a decisive victory by September/October 1943.
At least my prediction made back in post 46something has been proved to be correct; although I think Jon will have more serviceable panzers than I predicted- I think he has rotated them much better that I do.
I think the soviet back is well and truly broken, GAIA may stage a slight recovery during the Blizzard, but I can't see her stopping the Axis getting a decisive victory by September/October 1943.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:03 pm
Bob its 4th Army and 3rd PzA job to take Moscow. It will free all my other armys. As far as the AI will bamboozl most players... As far as Don, I think he moved into the top notch players, you have your hands full. I see a clash of arms in beta. Damn I gave up the ghost, time to rethink the box on that one...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:16 pm
Yes, Don is very happy - "someone" gave him 275,000 more trucks than he had last time - something about "Detroit doing double shifts"!
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:33 pm
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
I think Jon's got the AI bamboozled
Indeed. This game stopped being interesting a while ago.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:43 pm
Indeed. This game stopped being interesting a while ago.
Don't mean to sound rude, but it seems someone has some problems here. Over 47000 hits means that some people here enjoy the AAR and the atmosphere. No one is forced to come in here and read the thread.
Sorry Jon that I hijacked the thread, I just hate people moaning and complaining in the forum, esp when it is not called for. You put alot of work into the AAR and we all (nearly all) enjoy it. Some people just can't show gratitude or just be quiet.
As I said no one is forced to read or buy the game, just stick to being polite.
Mat
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:55 pm
"someone" gave him 275,000 more trucks than he had last time - something about "Detroit doing double shifts"!
You taake da low road and I'll taak da high road and I'll get to Berlin befourr yaa...., comrade, yes?
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:57 pm
Thanks Mat, agian we had ten AI updates durning this AAR (still alpha). I don't want to stick a feather in my cap, but I play rough. I think out things months in advance, Joel asked me to stop a week ago (real time) and I asked to let me play this out until mid December...So enjoy...We still have alot of work to do...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:57 pm
Sorry, but I remain rather disappointed in the very passive AI's defense here. It mounted exactly one meaningful counterattack during this entire game. (And that one did temporarily render Kliest hors d'combat. Showing what might have been done by Moscow if it had been more proactive there.) It fell victim to salami tactics. It did not use its armored reserves in the right places or at the right time. It seemed obssesed with Voroshilovgrad when Moscow was clear under threat. Etc. etc.
There are a lot of people here who are happy to cheer on PD, but this AAR left me quite unsatisfied as I was hoping to see something like a competitive match.
If being polite means ignoring all these issues, then color me rude. The AAR is, I thought, designed to test the game and then we can observe and criticize the results, and there are things to be critical of here.
There are a lot of people here who are happy to cheer on PD, but this AAR left me quite unsatisfied as I was hoping to see something like a competitive match.
If being polite means ignoring all these issues, then color me rude. The AAR is, I thought, designed to test the game and then we can observe and criticize the results, and there are things to be critical of here.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:16 pm
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Sorry, but I remain rather disappointed in the very passive AI's defense here. It mounted exactly one meaningful counterattack during this entire game. (And that one did temporarily render Kliest hors d'combat. Showing what might have been done by Moscow if it had been more proactive there.) It fell victim to salami tactics. It did not use its armored reserves in the right places or at the right time. It seemed obssesed with Voroshilovgrad when Moscow was clear under threat. Etc. etc.
There are a lot of people here who are happy to cheer on PD, but this AAR left me quite unsatisfied as I was hoping to see something like a competitive match.
If being polite means ignoring all these issues, then color me rude. The AAR is, I thought, designed to test the game and then we can observe and criticize the results, and there are things to be critical of here.
Have to agree without being rude, pretty dissappointing the logistic and command and control model seem to suspend belief which leaves a passive AI to get mugged at will. Vital to get these right or Bagration etc will just feel as dry. I'm not sure the strategic resouces of Germany would make this strategy viable or believable. No offense intended.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:47 pm
In the 2 ALPHA AARs that have been published, you have seen proof that the strength of the AI is inversely proportional to the experience of the player involved. Lee's Barbarossa experience showed that the AI was more than competitive for a relative novice, and Jon, who is far more experienced, has shown that he is ready to step up to the next level.
The underlying logistic and C&C model was the same for Lee and Jon; with two completely different results.
The underlying logistic and C&C model was the same for Lee and Jon; with two completely different results.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:52 pm
Please don't forgot that besides Easy, Normal and Challenging there is also Hard and Impossible.
I have tried Hard a few times and it really knocks the snot out of your sails. I dare say I have not yet had the guts to try impossible, not even after 2 or 3 glasses of scotch nor 2 glasses of Long Islands...
I have tried Hard a few times and it really knocks the snot out of your sails. I dare say I have not yet had the guts to try impossible, not even after 2 or 3 glasses of scotch nor 2 glasses of Long Islands...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:55 pm
The real test will be: how does this model perform between two human players at something approximating equal playing skill. Which is why the new 1943 AAR (suspended for the moment, alas, but for a good cause, granted) is the one I'm watching right now.
The first AAR with Lee proved to me that the game's AI will suffice as a tutorial. This second AAR proved to me that at some point I will want to move on to PBEM. The third AAR...that's the one that will really show if the game has legs.
The first AAR with Lee proved to me that the game's AI will suffice as a tutorial. This second AAR proved to me that at some point I will want to move on to PBEM. The third AAR...that's the one that will really show if the game has legs.
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:36 pm
Ron, they pissed me off agian...Start a new thread if you want to bitch about the AI. This is alot of work that I don't have to do. As I said the AI is still under construction...Flav I'd be glad to play you after release, until then shut the f..k up and stay off my AAR...
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:05 pm
I won't comment any further in this thread, since it doesn't appear to be open to discussion, PD. But I'll say in closing that I believe you as a playtester should be taking a more critical and scientific attitude towards your own AAR. There's not much analysis going on here of playtest results, nor is any allowed by outsiders.