Matrix Games Forums

The theme that I am beginning to see with awesome ADG boardgames Matrix-ized is that they are being done by one-person operations. 

One project manager can PM more than a single product development project.  If Matrix had one PM responsible for all of the games in development then the actual costs to this project wouldn't be $100,000.  A $110K/year PM can run 10-15 projects of this nature, making the actual project cost around 8K per year.  A PM would provide realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting and milestones that are met.  Issues would be tracked and risks would be mitigated.

A second addition would be to have a Business Analyst added to in-development projects.  A good 80K/year BA should be able to work on 5-10 projects of this magnitude simultaneously and could handle all touchy-feely communications, polls on what the customer wants, etc.  The BA cost slice for this development would run about 12K a year.

This leaves the main developer with all of the time dedicated to coding.  This would at least double his productivity, most likely tripling it for a mere $20K/year.  It is absurd to claim that it takes 100K+ per year to increase productivity or that a dozen staff have to be hired and a new coffee machine installed with a putting green in a glass office to provide quality results on time.

The result is no ramp-up time needed, no arguing with another developer, etc.  The PM manages, the BA handles all requirements gathering and the developer codes.  You don't need to toss programmers at this project, what this project (and EIA) needs is proper project management techniques and developers who code, not try and wear three hats at once.

I'm just curious that with the failure of EIA to deliver a playable product and the continuous delays to this one why ADG hasn't taken their licenses back and re-sold them to a company that properly manages projects to provide quality results on time and within budget. Hopefully ADG has this in their license with Matrix and take the proper steps needed to publish a realistic delivery milestone and get it done with with good quality.... and if Matrix fails to deliver on time with good quality then yank the license and go shopping around to another company such as 38 studios.

ORIGINAL: Gravit

The theme that I am beginning to see with awesome ADG boardgames Matrix-ized is that they are being done by one-person operations. 

One project manager can PM more than a single product development project.  If Matrix had one PM responsible for all of the games in development then the actual costs to this project wouldn't be $100,000.  A $110K/year PM can run 10-15 projects of this nature, making the actual project cost around 8K per year.  A PM would provide realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting and milestones that are met.  Issues would be tracked and risks would be mitigated.

A second addition would be to have a Business Analyst added to in-development projects.  A good 80K/year BA should be able to work on 5-10 projects of this magnitude simultaneously and could handle all touchy-feely communications, polls on what the customer wants, etc.  The BA cost slice for this development would run about 12K a year.

This leaves the main developer with all of the time dedicated to coding.  This would at least double his productivity, most likely tripling it for a mere $20K/year.  It is absurd to claim that it takes 100K+ per year to increase productivity or that a dozen staff have to be hired and a new coffee machine installed with a putting green in a glass office to provide quality results on time.

The result is no ramp-up time needed, no arguing with another developer, etc.  The PM manages, the BA handles all requirements gathering and the developer codes.  You don't need to toss programmers at this project, what this project (and EIA) needs is proper project management techniques and developers who code, not try and wear three hats at once.

I'm just curious that with the failure of EIA to deliver a playable product and the continuous delays to this one why ADG hasn't taken their licenses back and re-sold them to a company that properly manages projects to provide quality results on time and within budget. Hopefully ADG has this in their license with Matrix and take the proper steps needed to publish a realistic delivery milestone and get it done with with good quality.... and if Matrix fails to deliver on time with good quality then yank the license and go shopping around to another company such as 38 studios.

You are using a very simple management model.

Take a look at the rules for WIF and compare it to any other computer game. Then go back and rethink the tasks for your Business Analyst for requirements gathering. For instance, besides the basic Rules as Written document, there is the recent list of 360+ items from Harry Rowland on corrections and clarifications - those are the just design specifications for the simulation.

That does not cover the user interface, such as screen layouts, graphics, and how the player interacts with the program using the mouse and keyboard. There are over 100 forms for WMIF. Try comparing that to the number of forms in any other application you have ever used. Most war games have less than 20; "real-time war simulations" get by with 1 primary form/screen plus a few extras.

The increase in complexity as the number of rules increases is not linear, but at least geometric. Your BA is not going to be running 5-10 projects of this complexity each year. Take a look at the discussion today on Narvik, Liverpool, and Istanbul. The BA would not be a useful addition there - just one more person to whom everything would have to be explained.

Matrix does have a project manager running multiple projects, but he does not work down at the level you are suggesting: monitoring code development. That is because Matrix primarily takes nearly-finished games and then 'markets' them. That is their business model, with games like EIA and WIF exceptions to how they normally work.

So your idea that a PM can monitor 10-15 projects of this size down at the level of code development is unrealistic. For MWIF I have over 250 code modules containing 260,000 lines of code. I suspect that my 3-4 page weekly status report to Matrix contains a lot more detail than they want to read every week.

Even so, that level of reporting does not get down to the details you are assuming the PM will manage: "realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting, and milestones that are met". [Wow, does that bring back memories of when I got my MBA: using adjectives that have emotional impact but add little or no substance.]

But rephrasing your idea as: a detailed task list (no more than 100 hours per individual task), hours per task, schedule for starting/ending each task, hours worked per week on each task, and milestones (assume these are clearly defined or they wouldn't be milestones). That is what I revise monthly (semi-monthly for the past few months) and what I report on weekly to Matrix. To offload that work to someone else would require that someone else to be very knowledgeable at least at the level of what each of the 250 modules and 100 forms does. He should also have an excellent understanding of the rules for MWIF or he will be hopelessly lost comprehending what is happening.

MWIF is not a run-of-the-mill game that can be punched out cookie cutter style: one of 10-15 projects, one of 5-10 projects. That would be nice but it isn't the case.
======
And about these comments that I am doing this alone, there are a couple dozen people I am in communication weekly who are doing work more or less under my direction. These are all unpaid contributions, but the time and effort they spend is quite real and so are the contributions they have made/make to the product.[&o] It's all that "touchy-feely" stuff, you see, that has resulted in thousands of hours of unpaid assistance.

I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve! [&o]

Waiting as well. Keep up the good work!

OT: Goodness yes, that time out is set way too low for slow thinkers like me. There's about 15 posts I've given up on cause I got timed out.

I like the idea of just one programmer listening to the chorus of this forum. Each month we see the progress and there's a finality in some necessary decisions. I laughed at the "no more rules changes -- even from Harry" edict. Great stuff.

ORIGINAL: Charlie Lewis

I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve! [&o]

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

OT: Goodness yes, that time out is set way too low for slow thinkers like me. There's about 15 posts I've given up on cause I got timed out.

I like the idea of just one programmer listening to the chorus of this forum. Each month we see the progress and there's a finality in some necessary decisions. I laughed at the "no more rules changes -- even from Harry" edict. Great stuff.

ORIGINAL: Charlie Lewis

I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve! [&o]

Use Ctrl A followed by Ctrl C to make a copy of a post before clicking on OK. Then if you get logged off you still have to log back in but at least a Ctrl V will restore your entire post.

The trick is to learn to Ctrl A, Ctrl C, THEN click OK.

I know, but I'm not using to be affected by this.  Until two days ago, I just kinda sneered at those who were suffering as I blithely went along my way.  I have been humbled. [:(]

So, the answer is:  we're not there yet - [:D] - but it's just over the next hill - [;)] - and it will take us as long to get there as it takes [8D] !  That's what I told our son and our grandsons when we were driving somewhere on vacation and they became impatient.  Keep up the good work and this is another game I'll buy from Matrix et al.
 
For comparison, I've been waiting for Combat Mission Campaigns for about 8 years now - give or take a few life-times; you know how that is, eh? - and Battlefront's lads recently said on the forums that it's coming - heh - but there was an AAR from a beta campaign to read on The Armchair General .  So, I can wait for this one patiently, first because I just found out about the computer version of it and second 'cause I just bought GG's War Between the States to keep me occupied.  Carry on, lads! 

Not a "bad start?" Surely you jest. T[:-]

Honestly just stop responding to the "trolls". Internet forums are always full of people who behave any way they want (or think they know better than everyone else) because of the anonymity.

the truth is that such a famous game like this cant be announced so many years before the release, i think is a mental pain to any guy who want to buy it. i can understand some develoment or money problems, but dont announce a game if atm no one can release it.
 
you remember Duke Nukem F O R E V E R??

ORIGINAL: Rodwell

Honestly just stop responding to the "trolls". Internet forums are always full of people who behave any way they want (or think they know better than everyone else) because of the anonymity.

Warspite1

I think that is the right approach. Where the comments are genuine enquiries on progress then fine these should be answered. Where its just continual sniping IGNORE THEM!!

Hi Steve,
 
My first post so i am a 'newbie' but i have followed this game, the forum and your updates with interest for over 18 months. I guess what i am going to say may not find favour with most on here but i think my points are as valid as any one elses and i hope they are taken in the spirit of 'constructive' critism rather than an attempt to bash you or the many helpers of this project.
 
Last year the game was scheduled by yourself for completion by year end. Anyone with an inkling of the vast amounts still to complete could see this was impossible to accomplish and when you shifted completion to displaying at a convention in July? Aug? this year with a finished product to Matrix by year end (2008) i guess i was disappointed but could plainly see too much still had to be done. Following that you began to publish monthly reports (excellently detailed) and my hopes rose with each passing month......but you began to stop mentioning a delivery date (expected) and my worries rose. It was obvious i have to say (i was for 4 years a project manger on IT product but in no way claim any great powers of divination on games development) that the work to complete was still to vast. I imply no critisim personally nor to the many that have posted in your support but software devlopment is what i guess you do best. I do understand the vast difficulties in bringing to the market a game as detailed as MWIF's but do have to raise the issues that twice a delivery point was given and twice it has been missed. Yes i take on board we all want a GOOD finished product, it isn't the hard work and dedication i am questioning, it's the inability to deliver on schedules you yourself have given. And following the latest slip i note no further delivery time for completion has been offered. Steve, you, the team and all the contributors to the product desrve all plaudits offered and i am sure when delivered??! it will be all we all hope it will be. BUT, your the man as they say and it is dissappointing to see the delivery schedule not just slip but disappear over the horizon. Given the complexity of the game as noted and the AI to be developed i can't see this appearing in 2009........am i right?
 
Please all, let me just say i imply no personal critism of Steve or his team (this is by far an away the best games development forum i have ever seen and no doubt the game has benefited because of it, but that isn't my beef).......but facts are facts when it comes to delivery. The product is still a long way away........[:(] 

ORIGINAL: powell30

It was obvious i have to say (i was for 4 years a project manger on IT product but in no way claim any great powers of divination on games development) that the work to complete was still to vast.

One of the fundamental principles of the project management body of knowledge is the "iron triangle" of scope, cost [resources], and schedule. In this case,

1) scope is a contractually obligated constant -- MWIF = WIFFE + certain specified modules, and including an AI - the scope cannot change

2) the project manager (Steve) and the executive sponsors (Harry Rowland and Matrix) are both confident that he has done everything he can to bring additional resources on board (including thousands or maybe even tens of thousands of hours of volunteer labor from this board] - cost is maxed out

therefore

3) the delivery date is a function of the work that is required to complete the fixed scope given the maxxed out available resources.

A long winded way of saying "It will be done when it is done."

To add a more encouraging note, as a beta tester I can tell you that there is weekly, almost daily progress, and that large portions of the sequence of play run smoothly without bugs. It's happening, and it's going to be great. the only thing that could stop it is an asteroid hitting steve's apartment building in Hawaii.

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

To add a more encouraging note, as a beta tester I can tell you that there is weekly, almost daily progress, and that large portions of the sequence of play run smoothly without bugs. It's happening, and it's going to be great. the only thing that could stop it is an asteroid hitting steve's apartment building in Hawaii.

1. I agree. The beta is going swimmingly.

2. God forbid an asteroid is so mean-spirited. But in case the worst happens, I hope Steve has a backup of his work so far.


GSB

Been keeping an eye on this one for some years, must admit I started smiling a year ago [:D]
Still, those who wait for something good.... [8D]

Keep up the good work guys, we'll be there when you launch!

Consider this:

"Last year the game was scheduled by yourself for completion by year end
Anyone with an inkling of the vast amounts still to complete could see this was impossible to accomplish and when you shifted completion to displaying at a convention in July? Aug? this year with a finished product to Matrix by year end (2008) i guess i was disappointed but could plainly see too much still had to be done.
but you began to stop mentioning a delivery date (expected) and my worries rose
twice a delivery point was given and twice it has been missed
the inability to deliver on schedules you yourself have given.
following the latest slip i note no further delivery time for completion has been offered"

So now even Powell30 will be considered as a "troll"

Then consider that they have not answered to this:

"the delivery schedule not just slip but disappear over the horizon
.......but facts are facts
i can't see this appearing in 2009........am i right?
The product is still a long way away........
"

And finally consider that

"game will be ready when it will be"

Now consider if they REALLY want to deliver this game......


Please fill this form in:

relase date: dd/mm/yyyy

or this simlpier:
relase date mm/yyyy

or the simlpiest one:
release date: yyyy

ORIGINAL: werwolf

Now consider if they REALLY want to deliver this game......


Please fill this form in:

relase date: dd/mm/yyyy

or this simlpier:
relase date mm/yyyy

or the simlpiest one:
release date: yyyy

I'm not calling anyone a troll. And I don't speak for the project. This is just my personal opinion:

How does giving a date help finish the project? it doesn't change the scope, it doesn't change the amount of time required to do the work. It only changes your perception of the degree of progress.

To me, a good release date is 6 months after it is thought to be ready... take as long as you need, and then take more time. This game is complex, and cannot be rushed. I check out these forums about once a week, so reading every post every day is not #1 in my life, but it does seem that the people that are working on this not only want to do a good job, but care about making this worthy of WiF in general.
 
For those lurking around that are complaining that it's not ready, start a new thread entitled "We want a bug ridden game we can complain about", because that is what will happen. The rest of us can then just read about how things are going without the urge to reply to your banter.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I've been following the development of this game for several years and still have an Alpha version somehwere from the original publisher.  God, I'd love to beta test this one (hint hint[;)])...  but no matter what you do, take your time and make it right.  This game will surely be one of the best if not THE BEST strategic level WW2 of all time for the PC.  I commend you for your faithful attention to detail... this game will ROCK!!!!