TRP - Total Realism Project for War in Europe (1.12 Download)

[Lothos]

You are incorrect

If they fly an active mission they do not get any escort missions.

No. I just tested ingame. If you scout first, u got 1 escort mission left (so I was not entirely correct).
If you escort 2 times, you can still fly an active mission.
2023-04-24 20_02_30-SC3_ WWII War in Europe v1.25.00.jpg
2023-04-24 19_56_25-SC3_ WWII War in Europe v1.25.00.jpg

One other note, what you clasify as a scout missions is not correct. The game engine does not look at it that way. What you are doing is telling the fighters to attack the hex you targeted. If no target their they simply return. When doing this mission they can be intercepted and receive damage.

Basically, its NOT a scout mission. If you happen to target a unit (such as an AA) you will receive some MASSIVE DAMAGE!

[Duedman]

We might still be on the same page here haha
What did you think I meant by "scout mission"? If not an active flight into enemy territory?

I mean exactly what you describe. If I want to see some of the enemy formation, I have to take a risk.
Instead of just moving my fighter to the frontline and reveal 5 hexes deep with no risk of taking damage at all.

I really think we are misunderstanding each other. I am not a native speaker in English, don't know about you.
But as of now, your mod achieves exactly the opposite of what you stated with "air power has to matter".
At least for USSR.
OCB and I are not there yet. But he will scout all my movements in the East with inferior planes.... without risking damage at all. Just as I do in France atm.

[Lothos]

We might still be on the same page here haha
What did you think I meant by "scout mission"? If not an active flight into enemy territory?

I mean exactly what you describe. If I want to see some of the enemy formation, I have to take a risk.
Instead of just moving my fighter to the frontline and reveal 5 hexes deep with no risk of taking damage at all.

I really think we are misunderstanding each other. I am not a native speaker in English, don't know about you.
But as of now, your mod achieves exactly the opposite of what you stated with "air power has to matter".
At least for USSR.
OCB and I are not there yet. But he will scout all my movements in the East with inferior planes.... without risking damage at all. Just as I do in France atm.

I understand English is not your native language. At this time I disagree with you in changing the 5 hex scout to just 1 hex and have players do scout missions. I won't be changing it simply because I do not see any good alternatives and what I have IMO is the best option.

I do appreciate your opinion and thoughts and always encourage it to see what I can pick out and improve on.

[Duedman]

Fair enough. Dev's wont change it either.
In vanilla you can at least make houserules for that. But oh well.

I will keep nagging from time to time

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Well my three cents these vids will be great for analysis. I love the mod overall but as you will see this large passive sighting of fighters after a move forward and then back as described by Duedman eliminates the need to actually 'Fly' a scout mission into enemy territory, unless this is the desired 'scout' type mission wanted by Lothos. With long range tech maybe this will change things. Anyways, we have adapted ourselves to this feature of the mod. I respectfully think this aspect of the mod should be reconsidered in the future. But again, having video's to document all this may help with all of us seeing both points of view concerning this topic.

Also again, without beating a dead horse..not being able too put AA on resources makes me feel naked haha. Duedman agrees with that, as have others. I guess we will see how this plays out in the future as we progress deeper into the war. We did houserule in only allowing Strat Bombers 1 strike on a resource (per plane that is..the same resource hex could be struck by multiple strat bombers) because of no AA on resources mechanic.

Still, overall, I like the pacing and scale. Time to consider the future but not at a forced breakneck speed.
The Phoney War feels like it should, with anticipation and witnessing of the build up to the blitzkrieg out west. U-boat shenanigans and long term planning take their course.
Having alot of fun playing Duedman here. Very enjoyable.

Hopefully this letsplay series we have coming will help with any fine tuning of this brilliant mod.

Side note: Thanks Taxman and Lothos clarifying the Vigo and Canary Island Ports question. So we decided that in addition to the Excusion Zone, we will HouseRule that Allied air attacks are not allowed on those ports unless Spain is a Axis power at 100% mobilization.

Cheers

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Copy of a PM to Duedman regarding this Ftr Passive Spotting deal and leapfrogging (rebasing) them forward..passively spot, and then move back (rebasing a second time)

copy>
"Here's an idea for the Ftr passive spotting deal. I read your example about Soviet Ftrs leap frogging (rebasing) close to the front..passively spotting the Germans, and rebasing back.

We should house-rule once a Ftr rebases it has to stay. This way a fighter (rebased) would be prone to retaliation. If the fighter starts the turn close to the front, naturally that Ftr is passively spotting (scouting) out to 5 hexes and out over enemy lines. If things look dangerous, they can rebase back deeper in friendly territory.

I really think we should adapt this now.
Per your example: I can see my Soviet fighters moving up to the front (rebasing), passively spot, and then fly back and rebase a second time out of harms way. If I want to risk moving forward to spot the enemy, I should know that its possibly a risky mission by rebasing forward. Still might do it for an emergency...but at least its stuck there.

Of course the above example applies to both sides.
I strongly feel we should adapt the rule that Fighters only allowed to Rebase 1 time."
<end copy

The more I think on this, the more I believe this will help with this whole deal.

[Lothos]

You are incorrect

If they fly an active mission they do not get any escort missions.

No. I just tested ingame. If you scout first, u got 1 escort mission left (so I was not entirely correct).
If you escort 2 times, you can still fly an active mission.
2023-04-24 20_02_30-SC3_ WWII War in Europe v1.25.00.jpg
2023-04-24 19_56_25-SC3_ WWII War in Europe v1.25.00.jpg

You need to look at that screenshot again. It is not that you get 2 mission types. You get 1 of each type

You get 1 Escort
You get 1 Strike

When you scout (the way you describe it) it is actually a strike mission. You do not get 2 Escort missions. I checked again in game to make sure.

[Elessar2]

The rebasing/stealth scouting issue isn't the number of Action Points per se, but more the ability to rebase twice in the same turn. Lower the number of AP to zero after the first rebasing, problem solved. This would also reduce/eliminate the silly practice of using air units to swap ground units into rough terrain. [You could give air 1 remaining AP if the devs so desire]

Hi

Please can you explain in more detail the issue(s) this is seeking to reduce or eliminate?

Thanks

The main one was the topic being discussed here, popping an air unit up to the front to scout, then popping it back. If a single rebasing eats up all remaining action points (or leaves just 1 for general emergencies and contingencies, tho read below), then that will eliminate that exploit. Then we've had earlier discussions in other threads about using air units to swap in ground units into otherwise-inaccessible terrain; if you leave them with zero AP after their initial rebasing then they can't swap at all.

[edit] Coke to Duedman.

[Duedman]

You need to look at that screenshot again. It is not that you get 2 mission types. You get 1 of each type

You get 1 Escort
You get 1 Strike

When you scout (the way you describe it) it is actually a strike mission. You do not get 2 Escort missions. I checked again in game to make sure.

I said I won't discuss on this anymore but this feels like you are moving the goal posts.
Initially you said your reasoning for the current "high passive range/ low active range" fighter design is, that flying an active strike mission to scout won't let you escort anymore. That is not true.
Granted - I thought it will still let you escort twice as it should, which it doesn't You can escort only once after flying a mission.
But as I said in the screenshot-post above you CAN get 3 missions out of a fighter per turn. If you escort TWICE first, and then do the third flight as an active mission. I tested this ingame in the 1943 campaign.
@BillRunacre: I think this is a bug. It should be either 3 missions always or 2 missions always. Not depending on the sequence of orders.

With your AA Range of 2 the risk of running into AA is a bit higher. But with increased mission range to 8 or something you would most likely fly over those AA's since they are covering frontline units.
Maybe you could also lower effectiveness of AA vs fighters (but only a bit, so they are not used to trigger AA for free).

Your whole point of reducing ground unit spotting to zero is nullified by your current "high passive range/ low active range" fighters. It feels totally off to not see anything with my infantry - until the magic mushroom is popped.
Which is sad, because, as I said, I like your initial idea a lot!

[BillRunacre]

Thanks for the explanations Duedmann and Elessar2.

In future it's probably best to post in a new thread on the main forum, and perhaps link to the discussion here or elsewhere, as while I do read the modding forum, sometimes I skim through if there's lots of text, just looking for potential issues.

[BillRunacre]

@BillRunacre: I think this is a bug. It should be either 3 missions always or 2 missions always. Not depending on the sequence of orders.

We decided long ago to separate out strikes, intercepts and escorts... and if your fighter unit is able to carry out all 3 then it is either taking a grave risk, or you have good aerial superiority or supremacy. So it is a way of rewarding the person who achieves aerial dominance.

[Duedman]

@BillRunacre: I think this is a bug. It should be either 3 missions always or 2 missions always. Not depending on the sequence of orders.

We decided long ago to separate out strikes, intercepts and escorts... and if your fighter unit is able to carry out all 3 then it is either taking a grave risk, or you have good aerial superiority or supremacy. So it is a way of rewarding the person who achieves aerial dominance.

But why take it out of my hand to risk that? If I do 2 escorts first, the game let's me do a 3rd mission (yes, risky).
But if I scout first I then can only Escort once. Game won't let me risk the 3rd mission. Where is the logic in that?

[Lothos]

You need to look at that screenshot again. It is not that you get 2 mission types. You get 1 of each type

You get 1 Escort
You get 1 Strike

When you scout (the way you describe it) it is actually a strike mission. You do not get 2 Escort missions. I checked again in game to make sure.

I said I won't discuss on this anymore but this feels like you are moving the goal posts.
Initially you said your reasoning for the current "high passive range/ low active range" fighter design is, that flying an active strike mission to scout won't let you escort anymore. That is not true.
Granted - I thought it will still let you escort twice as it should, which it doesn't You can escort only once after flying a mission.
But as I said in the screenshot-post above you CAN get 3 missions out of a fighter per turn. If you escort TWICE first, and then do the third flight as an active mission. I tested this ingame in the 1943 campaign.
@BillRunacre: I think this is a bug. It should be either 3 missions always or 2 missions always. Not depending on the sequence of orders.

With your AA Range of 2 the risk of running into AA is a bit higher. But with increased mission range to 8 or something you would most likely fly over those AA's since they are covering frontline units.
Maybe you could also lower effectiveness of AA vs fighters (but only a bit, so they are not used to trigger AA for free).

Your whole point of reducing ground unit spotting to zero is nullified by your current "high passive range/ low active range" fighters. It feels totally off to not see anything with my infantry - until the magic mushroom is popped.
Which is sad, because, as I said, I like your initial idea a lot!

Sorry, I was not trying to move the goal post. I thought you were confused in that you get 2 air missions of any type. I wanted to make sure you were aware it is only 1 mission of each type.

[Duedman]

I was referring to this:

I am sorry but I disagree, if you fly a mission then the aircraft can no longer be used for escorting etc... It should not take an entire air wing to launch a scout mission.

So with that you say multiple missions are not possible. And that's why you have to have "high passive range/ low active range" fighters. By now you are telling me the opposite but do not react on the initial argument. This feels very odd.

Also if I placed my fighters not close enough to the front but want / need to see something, I now have to

take an entire air wing to launch a scout mission

Because due to very low engagement range there is no other way than moving the whole unit forward for its passive spotting. And guess what:
That's

then the aircraft can no longer be used for escorting etc.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Duedman (Axis) and OldCrowBalthazor (Allies) have a multiplayer match coming May 5, 2023
Its epic in scale and length!
Here are the links to the series announcements:

Duedman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IkE6Qr1pKY&t=124s

OldCrowBalthazor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STPfhXO1MTc

Its going to be a blast.

[Lothos]

Duedman (Axis) and OldCrowBalthazor (Allies) have a multiplayer match coming May 5, 2023
Its epic in scale and length!
Here are the links to the series announcements:

Duedman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IkE6Qr1pKY&t=124s

OldCrowBalthazor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STPfhXO1MTc

Its going to be a blast.

Look forward to it

FYI, I have a youtube channel but just have two videos on improving graphics for specific games (old games) LOL.

[Jarigon]

While the fall of France and establishing Vichy I am getting the following error message: "FAILED(draw_national_morale_buffer):Segmentation violation" .... I am playing with TRP 1.2.2...

[Lothos]

While the fall of France and establishing Vichy I am getting the following error message: "FAILED(draw_national_morale_buffer):Segmentation violation" .... I am playing with TRP 1.2.2...

Please read the first post in the thread, it covers this and how to fix it. You have to shut off National Flags.

[Jarigon]

While the fall of France and establishing Vichy I am getting the following error message: "FAILED(draw_national_morale_buffer):Segmentation violation" .... I am playing with TRP 1.2.2...

Please read the first post in the thread, it covers this and how to fix it. You have to shut off National Flags.

Many thanks, pls forgive my old eyes btw: following you and TRP since a decade back from HOI times...

[Lothos]

While the fall of France and establishing Vichy I am getting the following error message: "FAILED(draw_national_morale_buffer):Segmentation violation" .... I am playing with TRP 1.2.2...

Please read the first post in the thread, it covers this and how to fix it. You have to shut off National Flags.

Many thanks, pls forgive my old eyes btw: following you and TRP since a decade back from HOI times...

Awesome and thank you

Enjoy the mod, join our Discord Channel as I am on it most of the time and usually answer quickly. Feedback is always welcome.