Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Mike, do you cull pilots individually or wait for the whole "class" in a given unit to train up? If the former, do you immediately replace with a new recruit? I had a vague sense that I once read sticking to the class approach was better overall, but I'm not sure whether this was superseded by a later patch (or whether it was accurate to begin with).

I do both, depends on how much I've meddled with the unit's pilots. I manually pick all pilots to replace losses in front line units from the general reserve though.

I'm also trying something new. I've taken a Betty unit and divided it into 1/3's. I assign one to naval search, one to naval attack/bombing and the last to naval/attack torpedo. I'm looking to see if the breakdown speeds up the training process overall and how the mix will perform in combat when recombined. Just something I'm trying out, no idea if it is worth it or not at this stage.

The only concern I have with this is now you need 3 good pilots to assist in the training. That also takes out 2 extra rookie slots compared to the unit training whole. Not a lot but every pilot counts.

ORIGINAL: jrcar

I suggest syu will need about 120 Zero. 150-200 Oscar and around 200 Tojo plus the research factories working on the next model. Otherwise your airforce will be unable to grid the Allies down and if you don't they will be on the attack in late 1942.

cheers

Rob

Geez, that many?! How the hell do you ever train enough pilots?

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Nick FB – I don’t know what to do here but I need to decide real soon. Maybe 1x 30 of the KAIb (Dec 42)? The KAIa arrives in May 42.

Naw. No research factories need apply for this position. See SuluSea's recent excellent threads on comparatives. The KAIa is it for this line-the others are worse.

A6M3 (Jun 42) – 1x 60 factory which will become operational. Yeah, I know I should have done 2x 30 but did this early on before I knew the ramifications. In addition, I will convert 3 factories to this and when they are repaired to 30 will change to the A6M3a (Dec 42). I want the A6M3a as soon as possible because it is carrier capable. These 3 will become operational.

A6M5 (Aug 43) – I’ll use 3x 30 to work on getting this model early if possible. I’ll convert these factories to either the A6M5c or the A6M8. Gotta check the stats on these models to see what would be more beneficial.

Why not research the A6M3 with 6x30 factories, switch 5x30 over the A6M3a the month before the A6M3 comes online. Then you can switch 4x30 over to the A6M5 (and so on...) research using a 1x30 to fit production needs for A6M3a.

IJN TB – Right now I have a size 16 factory each for the B5N1 and B5N2. The N1 will build until the engines for it are gone. The N2 will build until there are ~50 in the pool and then stop. Not sure I’ll try to accelerate the Jill much. I’ll probably increase the Jill B6N1 and B6N2 factories to 30 and convert them to the Grace before they become operational. The operational Kate factories do not upgrade to anything so one or both will upgrade to the Jill eventually. My goal is to work on the Grace. The Grace factory will increase to 30 and will get the additional benefit of the two Jill factories. I’d love to get the Grace in early 44. The Grace factories will then become operational.

Mike: B6N series does not upgrade to Grace. Thus, your plan above (if I read it correctly) will result in only damaged research factories switching to Grace from Jill. It is unlikely that you will benefit from any research for your Grace series if your switchover results in damaged research factories in late 1943.

I did a little calculating. Without the SRA, the Japanese Empire produces ~25k supply a day, or 9 million a year. About 7.6 million is produced in the Home Islands. Now that will decrease once the oil glut is burned through. With the SRA intact, you get almost 30k a day, or 11 million supply a year. If one were to increase all R&D factories to 30, the cost would be about 1.7 million supply. Has anyone considered doing that with the R&D factories? Then you could focus on the airframes you want to accelerate and keep converting them to the next ones you want. Crazy thought but I wonder if it is plausible.

Resources and supply per se are hardly restrictors on the Japanese economy in this game, IMO. Especially if you bring in copious resources to the HI and keep light industry running, your 1.7MM supply cost can be easily accomodated.

If / when I restart the game, you can darn well bet that I'll right-size / maximize production in the manner you've outlined above.

I've decided against FBs altogether. My fighter pilots are for one thing - to shoot down enemy planes.

I've also decided against the A6M3. It's no better than the M2 so why bother? I'll jump directly to the A6M3a.

I didn't realize that R&D factories need to remain in the upgrade line to prevent damage. I guess I dedicate R&D factories to the Grace. Thanks.

I'm not going to increase all the R&D factories to 30 immediately. We'll see what happens later. I'll post my new draft for what models I want to produce. Still working on the factories....

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: jrcar

I suggest syu will need about 120 Zero. 150-200 Oscar and around 200 Tojo plus the research factories working on the next model. Otherwise your airforce will be unable to grid the Allies down and if you don't they will be on the attack in late 1942.

cheers

Rob

Don't overlook George ... it's your best 4E deterrent that you get. <period> A lot of Zero groups can get it AFTER they have the A6M5 upgrade. You'll need to play with Tracker to see them all and which ones. So, you will want to accelerate the A6M5 not for its marginal imporvement over the A6M3a, but for its ability to unlock some George upgrade paths. [;)]

Thanks Pax. I didn't realize this. I am going to produce the Zero and George on the IJN side. You'll see the details below.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

NF's.

Wish I had some good advice.  My testing in Downfall was not pretty.  Most of the IJ NF are SLOWER than the B-29, not good.  They have pitiful armament.  However, now that the NF glitch has been fixed, they have their bonus back which the day fighters lack.  Sometimes they will get in the way of the night bombers ... don't expect to have them shoot too many down.

So, for the IJA, at least the Dinah and the Randy are faster than the B-29.  They can at least interfere.

For the IJN, The Myrt and the Denko seem to be the best ... again, don't get your hopes up.

BTW, pilot exp seems to be a huge determinant in night outcomes ... moreso than day.  Min 60 EXP on your NF pilots, 70 makes a BIG difference. 

I want to have at least one model of NF for each air force. Now I'm not sure which one. I was initially going for when they would become operational.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Which is why I prefer the Ki-61 a over the d model and the Tojo IIc over the IIa. Cooler paint schemes. And that IIc has lightning bolts on the tail. FRIGGIN' LIGHTNING BOLTS people! Who can lose with those paint schemes?

By the way, Mike: I located this old thread on the forum. You may want to take a look at the advice offered by some of the usual game of misfits and thugs: [;)]

tm.asp?m=2460395

Thanks for that link, CB. It's great. I never saw it before.

I'm opting for the Tojo IIa -> IIc and the Tony Ki-100 as shown below.

I wrote this up yesterday. Let me know what you guys (and ladies) think. Now off to the turn....

R&D – Been thinking about it a lot today and am trying to come up with a plan. At first I was going into a lot of detail about each one. It would have been a book. I’ll just propose my plan and go from there.

First off, I tried to go through the R&D factories to see what I definitely did not want to build. That didn’t work so I decided on what I wanted to build and then will figure out how many factories to allocate. Difficult process.

IJN Fighters

Zero: A6M2 (12/42) -> A6M3a (12/42) -> A6M5 (8/43) -> A6M5b (6/44) -> A6M8 (8/45)
George: N1K1- J (9/43) -> N1K2-J (11/44)

Fighters have first priority. This was difficult because they don’t necessarily get progressively better with each version. The Zero is a requirement and will be the mainstay throughout the war. I opted to skip the A6M3 because it basically is no different from the M2, is not carrier capable and has shorter legs. I’m accelerating the M3a heavily (1x60, 5x30) and will pull out 1x6 and 1x30 when it becomes operational. I’ll probably convert some of the M2 factories as well. The remaining 3x30 will accelerate progressively through to the M8. Between the Jack and the George, I chose the George as the lesser of two evils. Rotten SR but lots of guns and armor.

IJN Night Fighters

Irving: J1N1-S (10/43) -> J1N1-Sa (10/44)

No acceleration. One 1x30 factory that will become operational. I like to have this capability even though it isn’t very effective.

IJN DB

Val: D3A1 (12/41)
Judy: D4Y3 (8/44)

Other than speed, the D3A1 is the best DB the Japanese have. I’ll go with the D4Y3 late in the war hoping its speed overcomes the poor maneuverability (but I doubt it). No R&D factory here. I’ll just convert the Val factory.

IJN TB

Kate: B5N1 (12/41)
Kate: B5N2 (12/41)
Jill: B6N1 (5/43) -> B6N2 (10/43)
Grace: B7A2 (12/44)

I’ll build out the B5N1 until the engines are gone. No R&D factories for the Jills. I’ll use 3x30 factories for the Jill N1 then switch them when they’re repaired to the Grace. I’d love to get the Grace early.

Edit: CB told me about the inability to switch paths without damaging the factories. I'll put the 3x30 factories on the Grace and let the Jill come when it does. Until then I should have plenty of Kates.

IJN Level Bombers

Nell: G3M2 (12/41) -> G3M3 (5/42)
Betty: G4M1 (12/41) -> G4M2a (6/44) -> G4M3a (11/44)
Betty: G4M2e (11/44)
Frances: P1Y3 (1/46)

The Nell and Betty will upgrade on their own with no acceleration. The G4M2e will be produced in limited quantities for the Oka. I’d like to get some P1Y3 early because the armor will make it a bit more survivable for the Oka, but I doubt that happens.

IJN Float Planes

Jake: E13A1 -> E13A1b
Glen: E14Y1
Rufe: A6M2-N

No acceleration.

IJN Recon

Babs: C5M2 (12/41)
Irving: J1N1-C (11/42)

No acceleration.

IJN Patrol
Mavis: H6K4 (12/41) -> H6K5 (6/42)
Emily: H8K1 (7/42) -> H8K2 (3/43)

No acceleration. The Mavis will stop production when the Emily becomes operational.

IJN Transport

Tina: L3Y2 (12/41)
Mavis: H6K2-L (4/42) -> H6K4-L (9/42)
Emily: H8K2-L (7/43)
Tabby: L2D2 (1/44)

No acceleration. The Mavis will stop production when the Emily becomes operational. Not sure I’ll produce the Tabby yet.

IJA Fighters

Oscar: Ki-43-Ic (12/41) -> Ki-43-IIa (11/42) -> Ki-43-IIb (5/43) -> Ki-43-IIIa (10/44)
Tojo: Ki-44-IIa (9/42) -> Ki-44-IIc (3/44)
Frank: Ki-84a (4/44) -> Ki-84b (3/45) -> Ki-84r (9/45)
Tony: Ki-100-I (3/45) -> Ki-100-II (9/45)

The Oscar will not accelerate. Its numbers will be reduced when the Tojo becomes operational. The Oscar will be the bomber escort. The others will be point defense. The Frank is nice other than the SR of 3. I’m going to try to work out a plan to get the Tony operational early. We’ll see if I can afford it.

IJA Night Fighters

Nick: Ki-45 KAId (4/44)

Probably 1x30 factory to try to bring this online a little early.

IJA Level Bombers

Sally: Ki-21-IIa (12/41) -> Ki-21-IIb (12/42)
Helen: Ki-49-IIa (9/42) -> Ki-49-IIb (9/43)
Peggy: Ki-67-Ia T (9/44)

I’m going to commit 3x30 to the Helen IIa and 1x30 to the Peggy. All four of the R&D factories will become operational.

IJA Recon
Dinah: Ki-46-II (12/41) -> Ki-46-III (1/43)

No acceleration.

IJA Transport

Topsy: Ki-57-I (12/41) -> Ki-57-II (3/42)

No acceleration. I’ll use all the Topsy I engines before upgrading to the Topsy II.

Now to work out the details on R&D factories……

Mike have you considered 2x30 D3A2 R&D factories which has an upgrade to the D5Y1? You should be able to get good acceleration at rather a cheap price.

Earlier in the thread some poo-poo'd my A6M2-N float fighter upgrade to the A6M5 which is next in line also but my reformulated plans have (5) R&D going into the A6M3 with one slated to convert and the rest moving onto the A6M3a and (4) R&D going into the A6M2-N float fighter which will all move to the next upgrade (A6M5) when the A6M2-N is ready.

ORIGINAL:  PaxMondo
Sure do miss C&G around here ...

You took the words out of my mouth Pax!

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Mike have you considered 2x30 D3A2 R&D factories which has an upgrade to the D5Y1? You should be able to get good acceleration at rather a cheap price.

Earlier in the thread some poo-poo'd my A6M2-N float fighter upgrade to the A6M5 which is next in line also but my reformulated plans have (5) R&D going into the A6M3 with one slated to convert and the rest moving onto the A6M3a and (4) R&D going into the A6M2-N float fighter which will all move to the next upgrade (A6M5) when the A6M2-N is ready.

ORIGINAL:  PaxMondo
Sure do miss C&G around here ...

You took the words out of my mouth Pax!

Couple questions here, Sulu -

Why even build the A6M3. I don't see the use of it. Why not move all the R&D to the M3a when the M3 is about ready?

I like the idea of R&D on the Rufe then switch it to the M5. Then you can simultaneously accelerate the M3a and the M5.

Good idea on the D3A2 to the D5Y1. I hadn't considered that.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Mike have you considered 2x30 D3A2 R&D factories which has an upgrade to the D5Y1? You should be able to get good acceleration at rather a cheap price.

Earlier in the thread some poo-poo'd my A6M2-N float fighter upgrade to the A6M5 which is next in line also but my reformulated plans have (5) R&D going into the A6M3 with one slated to convert and the rest moving onto the A6M3a and (4) R&D going into the A6M2-N float fighter which will all move to the next upgrade (A6M5) when the A6M2-N is ready.

ORIGINAL:  PaxMondo
Sure do miss C&G around here ...

You took the words out of my mouth Pax!

Couple questions here, Sulu -

Why even build the A6M3. I don't see the use of it. Why not move all the R&D to the M3a when the M3 is about ready?

I like the idea of R&D on the Rufe then switch it to the M5. Then you can simultaneously accelerate the M3a and the M5.

Good idea on the D3A2 to the D5Y1. I hadn't considered that.

My original thinking was to use it to help throttle overbuilding of A6M2 factories but on second thought I think I'll forget about building the A6M3 since its range is a step down from the M2..

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I've also decided against the A6M3. It's no better than the M2 so why bother? I'll jump directly to the A6M3a.

The A6M3 becomes available much earlier than A6M3a. Thus, your early war research factories will repair sooner than they would for research meted out for a later war model (i.e., the A6M3a). So, you may actually benefit at 'pulling forward' the A6M3a sooner by researching the A6M3.

I agree with you in terms of production though-the A6M3 has limited value. I've used it for a few land-based groups whilest my carriers got the first A6M3a replacements, but it was only a 'stopgap' measure.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
IJN DB

Val: D3A1 (12/41)
Judy: D4Y3 (8/44)

Other than speed, the D3A1 is the best DB the Japanese have. I’ll go with the D4Y3 late in the war hoping its speed overcomes the poor maneuverability (but I doubt it). No R&D factory here. I’ll just convert the Val factory.

Gah! Really? I've got to respectfully disagree with your choice here.

The D3A1 is dated in early 1942. You sure won't want to wait 3 years to get a useful replacement. While the D4Y1 and D4Y2 are 'touchy' with their higher service ratings, you will really want their higher payload, speed and range. The D4Y3 is a great plane, sure, but it's just too late to put all your eggs in that basket, Mike.

IJN TB

Kate: B5N1 (12/41)
Kate: B5N2 (12/41)
Jill: B6N1 (5/43) -> B6N2 (10/43)
Grace: B7A2 (12/44)

I’ll build out the B5N1 until the engines are gone. No R&D factories for the Jills. I’ll use 3x30 factories for the Jill N1 then switch them when they’re repaired to the Grace. I’d love to get the Grace early.

Edit: CB told me about the inability to switch paths without damaging the factories. I'll put the 3x30 factories on the Grace and let the Jill come when it does. Until then I should have plenty of Kates.

The Kate can hold its own until 5/43, when it can be phased out for the Jill. You should be OK with this, IMO.

IJN Level Bombers

Nell: G3M2 (12/41) -> G3M3 (5/42)
Betty: G4M1 (12/41) -> G4M2a (6/44) -> G4M3a (11/44)
Betty: G4M2e (11/44)
Frances: P1Y3 (1/46)

The Nell and Betty will upgrade on their own with no acceleration. The G4M2e will be produced in limited quantities for the Oka. I’d like to get some P1Y3 early because the armor will make it a bit more survivable for the Oka, but I doubt that happens.

Bad news for Betty fans: these aircraft are really outdated by mid-war, IMO. I see only minor improvements in the G4M3a v. G4M1 line, same for the Nells. I'm not going to produce the Okha at all, so the G4M2e is unnecessary in my game.

IJA Fighters

Oscar: Ki-43-Ic (12/41) -> Ki-43-IIa (11/42) -> Ki-43-IIb (5/43) -> Ki-43-IIIa (10/44)
Tojo: Ki-44-IIa (9/42) -> Ki-44-IIc (3/44)
Frank: Ki-84a (4/44) -> Ki-84b (3/45) -> Ki-84r (9/45)
Tony: Ki-100-I (3/45) -> Ki-100-II (9/45)

The Oscar will not accelerate. Its numbers will be reduced when the Tojo becomes operational. The Oscar will be the bomber escort. The others will be point defense. The Frank is nice other than the SR of 3. I’m going to try to work out a plan to get the Tony operational early. We’ll see if I can afford it.

Just a point of caution on your Tojo R&D. I think the default is for the IIa research to 'upgrade' to the IIb (without factory damage). So, you may need to make the change from the IIb research over to IIc manually, if that makes sense. This is my recollection-do others recall specifics of this R&D switchover?

IJA Level Bombers

Sally: Ki-21-IIa (12/41) -> Ki-21-IIb (12/42)
Helen: Ki-49-IIa (9/42) -> Ki-49-IIb (9/43)
Peggy: Ki-67-Ia T (9/44)

I’m going to commit 3x30 to the Helen IIa and 1x30 to the Peggy. All four of the R&D factories will become operational.

Just the "T" Peggy version, Mike?

IJN bombers/patrols with air to ship radar (for night naval search and torpedo attacks):-

G3M3 Nell
G4M2a Betty
G4M3a Betty
P1Y2 Frances
B6N2a Jill
H6K5 Mavis
H8K2 Emily

This night capability is a potential late-war game changer IMO. You can't accelerate the radars though, so there is possibly not much point accelerating the planes.

In my Downfall playing, yes the radar's did help with NavSearch. But by them the Bolts and Stangs are so ferocious that they don't really impact your Nav Attack. You can't protect them enough to get them in. Kami attacks are far more effective. Maybe the radar helps with the kami attack? I can't say yes or no.

Lots of great input guys. I'm learning a lot. I'm increasing some of my R&D factories now and will check to see how it affect my supply before I do more. I'll post it in a minute...

Mike,

I'm with CB on most of his points.

It appears that you are choosing the "spread the R&D around" formula. OK.

DB's. SR isn't that huge of a deal for CV bomber aircraft. How many carrier battles go more than 3 rounds? Most are settled on the first mornings' launch and SR has no impact on that. They will all launch. So, I agree. Going from 6 to 7 hexes and 250kg to 500 kg is a BIG deal. 250Kg bounce off a lot of capital ships. 500kg always goes "BOOM". [;)]

IJN LB's - Yeah, I've had little success. Best I can say is that the last Nell with its range makes a GOOD, CHEAP patrol. Anything with range beyond your fighters is called a "kami" after 6/43. 2E kami's are twice the cost of 1E kami's. [:D]

IJA Fighters: by late '44 the Tony is too slow for a fighter ... Frank is just marginal at 390. The Bolts and Stangs are way over 400 in '45 and it will really show in combat. So, if you can pull the Tony in by 18 months, I'd say ok. Otherwise, not sure it will really help you much. The supply might be better spent on making the Frank happen sooner ... How about Frank in mid '43? Lot of supply to make that happen, but this is a fighter that will compete until early '45. Trouble is the "b" version is best IIRC and it is a solo R&D ....

Peggy - maybe CB has other experiences, but here's mine. By the time the Peggy comes around, I'm in the same problem I am with the IJN 2E bombers: I can't get them through the CV screen to be effective at range. I've already got kami's, and they are more effective and 2E kami's are pricey. I can send 2 Ann's for the price of 1 Peggy ... granted the Peggy makes a bigger boom, but numbers matter in kami attacks to 2 is better than one.

Just my thoughts ....

Ok, here's my R&D so far:

A6M2-N: 3x30 - 1 operational $ 2 advance to the A6M5.

A6M3: 1x60 & 5x30 - All advance to the A6m3a.

Ki-49-Ia: 3x30 - All advance to the Ki-49-IIa.

N1K1-J: 2x30 - All operational. I'll add another later.

Ki-44-IIa: 3x30 - All operational. I'll add 3 more that will advance to the Ki-44-b and then Ki-44-IIc immediately. CB, I tested it and if you do them in order you can do it in one turn without damage.

D4Y1: 1x30 - Operational. Good argument, CB.

B7A2: 1x30 - Operational.

That's 18 R&D factories, so what are you going to do with the other 60? [:D] Pinochle? [&o][&o][&o]

I'm going to see how this affects my supply for a couple of turns then I'll add more. I'll add one more to the George and 6 Frank factories and 3 more later. I'm going to give the Frank a shot.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

That's 18 R&D factories, so what are you going to do with the other 60? [:D] Pinochle? [&o][&o][&o]

Give me a break. [:D] I'm the conservative one who never played with PDU on before. I'll get there. Do you guys really increase all your R&D factories to 30 immediately? [X(]