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Taxman66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:28 pm NOPE:

Vichy France was 'liberated' and aligned to the Allies after capturing the city of Vichy. Germany had previously used the DE to take over Vichy after Torch landings in Morrocco & Algeria.

As for the supply level of the units, I am looking at the information box and it is clearly telling me what the supply level is for each of the units (6 or better for all the ones I was trying to reinforce). If the units supply is lower than that, then there is a display error.

From your PM's to resolve the problem then is to change the Decision of when Germany takes control of Vichy to have it instead give control of the proivinces to germany but ownership to France.

OK, seems reasonable.

I just noticed something pretty big regarding how the new 1.26 patch interacts with TRP.

Land Based Air units only have a Land spotting range of 1 after they move (rebase).
Sea spotting remains unchanged, so if you fly to the coast, you will reveal sea hexes. I suppose this has to remain this way for CV/CVLs to work properly.
I didn't see this in the patch notes and am unsure if it applies to the base game or happens to be an undocumented feature in how it interacts with the mod.

Note The GE FTR moves and does not reveal anything new (note this is turn 2, so GE is at war with FR).

In my MP match post patch I flew a UK fighter up to re-base and the passive spotting went from 5 to 3 (on land). According to the patch notes its to be reduced to 50% so possibly its rounded up. Yaay that's something of a fix...but I still had massive AP left to rebase back after the passive scouting mission if I wanted to. We have a house rule in effect that lets us move the fighter after re-basing to 1 hex currently, so I contacted Duedman my opponent last night about this.

Duedman thought the re-based fighter's passive range was going to be rounded down to two, but wasn't sure. Said he's going to check.
For the time being we are going to keep our Fighter re-basing to 1 time with a 1 hex as we are on the verge of Barbarossa.

I like the change in the patch but I don't think it totally solves the gamey move of flying a fighter unit up to just behind the front line, passively spot, and fly back to safety. Until Long Range tech is gained, scouting 'missions' (Where you actually have to fly over enemy territory with the risk that brings) don't really need to be done. Well, this is actually a topic best put elsewhere...but since TRP has Fighter passive spotting at 5 until rebasing to 3 or 2, we probably are going to keep our house rule and would recommend it to others that are going to play at least MP.

I'm looking through the WiE patch notes, and don't see it mentioned at all. Are you looking at the WaW patch notes?

If it was 3 then Nancy would not still be in the fog of war after the following rebase.

Taxman66 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:38 am I'm looking through the WiE patch notes, and don't see it mentioned at all. Are you looking at the WaW patch notes?

If it was 3 then Nancy would not still be in the fog of war after the following rebase.

LBA Spotting 2.jpg

Here it is WiE V 1.26.00: Rebasing an air unit lowers its spotting range in half, and rebased air units can no longer swap with an adjacent unit (Elessar2, Duedman).

The 50% must be rounded down so the 5 hex passive spotting becomes 2 hexes apparently according to your image.. I only did a test 'ingame' so may have interpeted what I saw wrong. (Thinking it was rounded up to 3 hexes). It was a busy area.

Ok, I see it in the TXT Version changes file.

However, it is missing from the PDF file that is brought up by pressing the patch notes button: "Read me File 16th May 2023 Version 1.26.00"

Personally, I don't think the house rule for TRP is necessary anymore. Flying forward to scout, then falling back means the FTR can't be used for escorting that turn, and with only getting a range of 2 is not going to cover much ground. It's far less than the vanilla system where land units have spotting 2.

FYI,I was wrong and this change does apply to naval spotting.
I forgot that TRP FTRs have naval spotting 7, so it is cut to 3 (after rebasing). Maritime bombers are cut from 10 to 5 (after rebasing) and CV/CVLs are unaffected.

Regarding your house rules: I suggest you reconsider your rebase house rule and allow full rebasing. Otherwise I don't see how the Soviets will be able to spot anything without getting their FTRs killed.

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Lothos, this patch change has a pretty dramatic impact on TRP given that ground units (except HQs) have a spotting range of 1 instead of 2.

Taxman66 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:18 pm FYI,I was wrong and this change does apply to naval spotting.
I forgot that TRP FTRs have naval spotting 7, so it is cut to 3 (after rebasing). Maritime bombers are cut from 10 to 5 (after rebasing) and CV/CVLs are unaffected.

Regarding your house rules: I suggest you reconsider your rebase house rule and allow full rebasing. Otherwise I don't see how the Soviets will be able to spot anything without getting their FTRs killed.

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Lothos, this patch change has a pretty dramatic impact on TRP given that ground units (except HQs) have a spotting range of 1 instead of 2.

I'll contact Duedman asap

Taxman66 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:18 pm FYI,I was wrong and this change does apply to naval spotting.
I forgot that TRP FTRs have naval spotting 7, so it is cut to 3 (after rebasing). Maritime bombers are cut from 10 to 5 (after rebasing) and CV/CVLs are unaffected.

Regarding your house rules: I suggest you reconsider your rebase house rule and allow full rebasing. Otherwise I don't see how the Soviets will be able to spot anything without getting their FTRs killed.

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Lothos, this patch change has a pretty dramatic impact on TRP given that ground units (except HQs) have a spotting range of 1 instead of 2.

Not really, it just gives the advantage to the defender which is how it should be. Someone being on the offensive needs to keep pushing their aircraft forward after they move their units to prepare for advancing the next round. It just removes the move the fighter up and see everything right away.

I do not see an advantage for the defending soviets.
GE can just put a fighter in the second row behind their unbreakable units and will enjoy great vision next turn.
If SU tries that in the first 1-2 years they will just lose their fighter.

What this rule change did break up is super aggressive Force-March-Paratrooper rushes in Vanilla.
Because now you can not just passive spot the Ukrainian towns and chose to hop into the empty ones.

Duedman wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:18 pm I do not see an advantage for the defending soviets.
GE can just put a fighter in the second row behind their unbreakable units and will enjoy great vision next turn.
If SU tries that in the first 1-2 years they will just lose their fighter.

What this rule change did break up is super aggressive Force-March-Paratrooper rushes in Vanilla.
Because now you can not just passive spot the Ukrainian towns and chose to hop into the empty ones.

Well now at least I (The Soviets) can rebase forward to peek-a-boo again and unass out.
Btw I noted the old trick of force marching an airborne unit all the way even into bad supply and prepare to jump.
Watched you do that for on your vids for a long time
Now no more for nobody with the new patch, a wonderful thing I may add.
Well, we are close to Barbarossa in our match.
Should be titanic.
zashchishchat' Rodinu!

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:54 pm

Duedman wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:18 pm I do not see an advantage for the defending soviets.
GE can just put a fighter in the second row behind their unbreakable units and will enjoy great vision next turn.
If SU tries that in the first 1-2 years they will just lose their fighter.

What this rule change did break up is super aggressive Force-March-Paratrooper rushes in Vanilla.
Because now you can not just passive spot the Ukrainian towns and chose to hop into the empty ones.

Well now at least I (The Soviets) can rebase forward to peek-a-boo again and unass out.
Btw I noted the old trick of force marching an airborne unit all the way even into bad supply and prepare to jump.
Watched you do that for on your vids for a long time
Now no more for nobody with the new patch, a wonderful thing I may add.
Well, we are close to Barbarossa in our match.
Should be titanic.
zashchishchat' Rodinu!

I was surprised how easily he broke through the maginot. It was because of his artillery correct? I am thinking maybe I should make it so the fortifications get no damage from artillery. It just should have never been that easy as their stats are so high.

It's the deentrenchment that is the primary killer.
At ART tech 1 each shot reduces it by 2.
The new patch will help a tiny bit in that planes no longer deentrench in bad weather (rain/snow/sandstorm), but this only applies to the 1 GE med bomber.

Additionally there was an update to the maximum fortification level of Strasburg and Metz that Vanilla made some time ago that was not applied to TRP. They should be 6 like the other hexes. The ART would still wipe it out but it might have caused an extra turn particularly when it came to Metz.

Other ideas (3 & 4 are more radical and could cause unintended effects)
1) Put a 1940 build date restriction on GE rocket ART (I pointed out above these didn't start showing up until after the fall of France). For balance purposes maybe add regular ART as well.

2) increase defensive values of Pillboxes.

3) Remove the starting ART tech for Germany and give them a chit in it. Possibly do this for France as well.

4) Add a French HQ somewhere in the vicinity.

Taxman66 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 11:12 pm It's the deentrenchment that is the primary killer.
At ART tech 1 each shot reduces it by 2.
The new patch will help a tiny bit in that planes no longer deentrench in bad weather (rain/snow/sandstorm), but this only applies to the 1 GE med bomber.

Additionally there was an update to the maximum fortification level of Strasburg and Metz that Vanilla made some time ago that was not applied to TRP. They should be 6 like the other hexes. The ART would still wipe it out but it might have caused an extra turn particularly when it came to Metz.

Other ideas (3 & 4 are more radical and could cause unintended effects)
1) Put a 1940 build date restriction on GE rocket ART (I pointed out above these didn't start showing up until after the fall of France). For balance purposes maybe add regular ART as well.

2) increase defensive values of Pillboxes.

3) Remove the starting ART tech for Germany and give them a chit in it. Possibly do this for France as well.

4) Add a French HQ somewhere in the vicinity.

GE starts with Arty tech 0.
I think its either

1. a date restriction in the West or
2. somehow arrange that GE arty (not just rocket arty) is unavailable until April or May 1940.
Beeing able to build 2-3 Artys with virtually no tradeoff is super powerful

Pavia suggested giving the Pillboxes the Arty trait. Maybe with lots of ammo.
So they would defend each other.

As for your previous comment on the no longer possible Para-rush:
I also found that a bit gamey. When I came up with it (I'm sure others did before) it felt great! So much fun.
But I'm with you here. It was not good for the game.

You're right, GE doesn't start with ART tech. Just makes what you did even more impressive though.

Putting a January 01, 1940 build date restriction (similar to the date restrictions on the self-propelled ART and elite Tank Corps) would mean that the ART would be placed on the map in early April and not be available for use until the following the turn.

I think Metz & Strasburg max fortifications levels should be brought up speed as well.

Interesting idea to give the Pillboxes Arty trait, but would that make it too tempting to use them offensively?

Taxman66 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:15 pm You're right, GE doesn't start with ART tech. Just makes what you did even more impressive though.

Putting a January 01, 1940 build date restriction (similar to the date restrictions on the self-propelled ART and elite Tank Corps) would mean that the ART would be placed on the map in early April and not be available for use until the following the turn.

I think Metz & Strasburg max fortifications levels should be brought up speed as well.

Interesting idea to give the Pillboxes Arty trait, but would that make it too tempting to use them offensively?

Traits can't be moved around. THey are fixed for the units which is why I moved all the unit types around. My thinking is to increase defenses against artillery perhaps but not sure. Need to test.

Taxman66 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:15 pm You're right, GE doesn't start with ART tech. Just makes what you did even more impressive though.

I don't quite know how to put it.
But ammo generation is kind of a unintended "hidden change" with this mod. Doing only 1 de-entrenchment per turn does not matter that much if you got double the turns.
You could not do that in vanilla without double chitting arty tech right away. It would be too time consuming.
But in TRP you simply build 2-3 arty and clear one hex at a time. And time you got plenty.

A similar thing I noticed is that twice the turns lead to increased power of Strategic Bombers.
Already in vanilla they do more damage than resources can heal. Which is balanced by scarcity of turns.

An example:
I'm assuming 1 turn in vanilla equals 2 turns in TRP
Unopposed unupgraded Stratbombers do 4 dmg x 2 to a ressource which then heals for 1
So, after the heal, in vanilla the ressource is at -7 (which is brutal already)
In TRP with equal time elapsed it is at "-14" (or in other words: 2 Soviet towns out of action)

So I'm either having a brainfart or they dramatically increased in power.

Edit: Changed to 2 attacks per turn. I had the houserule with OCB in mind where we limited them to 1 resource strike per turn.

Duedman wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:18 pm

Taxman66 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:15 pm You're right, GE doesn't start with ART tech. Just makes what you did even more impressive though.

I don't quite know how to put it.
But ammo generation is kind of a unintended "hidden change" with this mod. Doing only 1 de-entrenchment per turn does not matter that much if you got double the turns.
You could not do that in vanilla without double chitting arty tech right away. It would be too time consuming.
But in TRP you simply build 2-3 arty and clear one hex at a time. And time you got plenty.

A similar thing I noticed is that twice the turns lead to increased power of Strategic Bombers.
Already in vanilla they do more damage than resources can heal. Which is balanced by scarcity of turns.

An example:
I'm assuming 1 turn in vanilla equals 2 turns in TRP
Unopposed Stratbombers do 4 dmg to a ressource which then heals for 1
So, after the heal, in vanilla the ressource is at -3
In TRP with equal time elapsed it is at -6

So I'm either having a brainfart or they dramatically increased in power.

You need to intercept the Strategic bombers to have them cause less damage either with AA units or being intercepted.

I am not sure why people keep complaining about this when historical facts are supporting my viewpoint on this. The strategic bomber campaign was devastating to Germany. Germany (historically) had to focus over 70% of its fighters to protect Germany from the bomber campaign.

What I keep hearing from people is they want to build a bunch of AA and then forget about it and let the Allies suffer massive aircraft losses with no damage to the Germans because AA fire receives no damage back. This is not fair and NOT historically accurate! The change was designed to force the German player to move their fighters to protect their industry. This in turn helps the Russians gain Air Supremacy (slowly) on Germany which again is HISTORICALLY ACCURATE!

So to answer your question, assign your fighters to defend your stuff and build all your AA and have them sit around the most vital locations which would then limit where the Allies can bomb if they do not want 1 sided damage (meaning they take damage but the other side does not).