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RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:32 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
This is really good stuff K - except I am told the AA is different - not mixed as you show - but homogenious - and I just changed it to that a few versions ago.
Yes, as I wrote, it's an old post. Since I've posted this originally, I've learned alot about British/Indian artillery (not only anti-air artillery). "Only" Bofors in India, it seems. At least in British formations. Still lacking good source material about Indian artillery.
K
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:40 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I am going to adopt much of K's ideas I think
Hi, I'll try to find a newer version of this and post it (have to check my old emails to Don).
I eventually changed some of the above in my own mod. This was my first try for a better representation of the Indian Army.
And I've lots of stuff about the Kiwis - problem is that a more historical representation of the Kiwi forces could heavily unbalance the game. Anyway, will try to dig it out.
K
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:46 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: JeffK
Sid,
The Regt serving with 2 British Div was an AA/AT Rgt, I have no idea of the TOE
100th AT Rgt (Gordon's, I think). Functioned as 100th LAA/AT Rgt for some time. Probably 2 Bty LAA and 2 Bty AT (official TOE for a LAA/AT Rgt).
2nd British Division arrived with MG Bn (18th British didn't), but I don't know what happened with it (it is never mentioned in source material about the Burma Campaign; maybe it was split, adding one MG coy to every brigade of 2nd British Division).
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:12 am
by JeffroK
Correct K,
2 batteries each of LAA & AT.
This TOE seemed to be in vougue throughout SEAC from Dec 43 to Sept 44
The Brits did have HAA, 8th(Belfast) HAA Rgt fought in the Admin Box battles, and made the Japanese dsuffer from direct fire from their 3.7" Guns.
Re 82 (WA) Infantry Div
It was formed with 3 Brigades.
3 Bde was detached and served with The Chindits returning later in the war. (I forgot to right down the date
)
Did we forget 11 East African Div from May-July 1943 with 21, 25 & 26 EA Bdes plus 2 more Independent Bdes, 22 EA & 28 EA Infantry Bdes
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:20 am
by JeffroK
2 Manchesters gets mentioned in "Battle of Kohima" by Arthur Swinson but not in "Springboard to Victory" by C E Lucas Phillips
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:08 am
by el cid again
Tell me about 23rd Indian Division. Kereguelen lists it neither as deleted nor as kept nor as added. So why is it in the OB?
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:10 am
by JeffroK
Still trekking down the Tiddim track.
Its Brigades 1, 37 & 49 are included.
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:06 am
by herwin
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Tell me about 23rd Indian Division. Kereguelen lists it neither as deleted nor as kept nor as added. So why is it in the OB?
Formed on 1 Jan 1942. Fought on the Burma front (4th Corps) starting in the spring of 1942. Good quality veteran division. Minimal British troops (two battalions).
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 am
by el cid again
I want to know where it formed - and what were its (2?) arty regiments - and what was its AA/AT regiment?
Also - 75 Brigade does not make the list of units by K - neither does another Brigade - did he omit Pakistani units?
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:33 am
by m10bob
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:38 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I want to know where it formed - and what were its (2?) arty regiments - and what was its AA/AT regiment?
Also - 75 Brigade does not make the list of units by K - neither does another Brigade - did he omit Pakistani units?
No, Pakistan was not even in existence then. I'll "Excel-ise" the Indian Army soon, but currently have too much "action" at work and not enough time to do it. And as JeffK noticed, the component brigades of 23rd Division are included in my list. As I said before, the main problem of the Indian Army is its ever-changing nature (if I remember correctly, 1st Bde was at the NW frontier until May 1942, 37th Bde was in Bengal in Dec 41, 49th Bde was part of 19th Division in Dec 1941).
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:31 pm
by el cid again
I know that Pakistan didn't exist yet. But brigades in Pakistan are missing from your list.
I should issue the next release - but remain confused by a couple units. It is like the FAA -
very dynamic!
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:39 pm
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I know that Pakistan didn't exist yet. But brigades in Pakistan are missing from your list.
LoL, then please refer to "Pakistan" as the "NW Frontier" or whatever you like to call it, the use of the rather political than geographical term "Pakistan" confuses me[;)].
But otherwise you're correct. I did not include the NW Frontier brigades because I think that they should not be in the game (after all, they were needed to contain the local tribes). They only appear on my list if/when they made it to the CBI.
K
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:44 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I want to know where it formed - and what were its (2?) arty regiments - and what was its AA/AT regiment?
Also - 75 Brigade does not make the list of units by K - neither does another Brigade - did he omit Pakistani units?
See <
http://www.burmastar.org.uk/23rdind.htm> and <
http://www.ordersofbattle.com/UnitData. ... 13&Tab=Uhi>
158th. 179th. Field Regt (Royal Artillery
38th Light A/A Regt (Royal Artillery)
3rd Indian Field Regt (Indian Artillery)
28th Indian Mountain Regt (Indian Artillery)
2nd Indian A/Tank Regt (Indian Artillery)
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:41 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I know that Pakistan didn't exist yet. But brigades in Pakistan are missing from your list.
LoL, then please refer to "Pakistan" as the "NW Frontier" or whatever you like to call it, the use of the rather political than geographical term "Pakistan" confuses me[;)].
But otherwise you're correct. I did not include the NW Frontier brigades because I think that they should not be in the game (after all, they were needed to contain the local tribes). They only appear on my list if/when they made it to the CBI.
K
Problem is - they are not available in an emergency. I know a player who plans to succer the Indian Army far from Kerachi - then hit it. Now no units in the area then is fatal - and not historical either. Planning should be in the context of the real units - and defense should have them. Still - I found your list very useful - and it is now virtually all folded into all RHS scenarios. India may not be so vulnerable any more.
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:42 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I want to know where it formed - and what were its (2?) arty regiments - and what was its AA/AT regiment?
Also - 75 Brigade does not make the list of units by K - neither does another Brigade - did he omit Pakistani units?
See <
http://www.burmastar.org.uk/23rdind.htm> and <
http://www.ordersofbattle.com/UnitData. ... 13&Tab=Uhi>
158th. 179th. Field Regt (Royal Artillery
38th Light A/A Regt (Royal Artillery)
3rd Indian Field Regt (Indian Artillery)
28th Indian Mountain Regt (Indian Artillery)
2nd Indian A/Tank Regt (Indian Artillery)
Thanks guys. The duplicated elements lead me to kill the division - easier than all the little stuff. B ut if we need slots we can go the other way - fold them all into one unit - which might happen at Level 7.
RE: NEW Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:06 pm
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I know that Pakistan didn't exist yet. But brigades in Pakistan are missing from your list.
LoL, then please refer to "Pakistan" as the "NW Frontier" or whatever you like to call it, the use of the rather political than geographical term "Pakistan" confuses me[;)].
But otherwise you're correct. I did not include the NW Frontier brigades because I tink that they should not be in the game (after all, they were needed to contain the local tribes). They only appear on my list if/when they made it to the CBI.
K
Problem is - they are not available in an emergency. I know a player who plans to succer the Indian Army far from Kerachi - then hit it. Now no units in the area then is fatal - and not historical either. Planning should be in the context of the real units - and defense should have them. Still - I found your list very useful - and it is now virtually all folded into all RHS scenarios. India may not be so vulnerable any more.
Hi, there was (at least) one "real" brigade that served as reserve for the whole "NW Frontier" area. Have to dig out its number. But most "brigades" located there were rather administrative formations (they were not numbered but named "Peshawar Brigade", "Upper Sind Brigade" etc.), commanding all battalions stationed in their respective areas. Only when needed, "real" brigades were formed (that is, not often; during our timeframe only during the uprising of the Hur-Tribe, I think).
K
Edited:
3rd Indian Infantry Bde (Brigadier G.A. Quale) functioned as Frontier Defense Reserve Brigade at Jhelum initially but moved to Waziristan as an additional frontier brigade in mid-1942 (probably to relieve 1st Indian Brigade when this moved to the CBI then). The brigade had always one Mtn. Bty attached from 1942 onwards (quite unusual).
75th Infantry Bde (formed 1st April 1942 at Campbellpore) also acted as a "real" brigade.
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:16 pm
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: herwin
They were foot-mobile but lacked the tactical mobility of regular infantry because they were restricted to a walking pace by the weight of their weapons and ammo. The standard MMG battalion had enough automatic firepower to cover a typical division front using prepared fields of fire, but it lacked the supporting infantry needed to simultaneously protect and supply the MMGs and ensure that they were kept manned. This also meant that they could not cover much front using all-around defense. They were intended to provide the strongpoints that retreating infantry could fall back on to block an enemy advance.
herwin.
are you talking about British/CW MG Battalions in general or about Indian MG Battalions here? Standard MG battalions were always motorised (according to official TOE's; even in 1939/40), but I'ld be interested if you've any information about the equipment of MG battalions in Burma.
K
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:33 pm
by herwin
ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: herwin
They were foot-mobile but lacked the tactical mobility of regular infantry because they were restricted to a walking pace by the weight of their weapons and ammo. The standard MMG battalion had enough automatic firepower to cover a typical division front using prepared fields of fire, but it lacked the supporting infantry needed to simultaneously protect and supply the MMGs and ensure that they were kept manned. This also meant that they could not cover much front using all-around defense. They were intended to provide the strongpoints that retreating infantry could fall back on to block an enemy advance.
herwin.
are you talking about British/CW MG Battalions in general or about Indian MG Battalions here? Standard MG battalions were always motorised (according to official TOE's; even in 1939/40), but I'ld be interested if you've any information about the equipment of MG battalions in Burma.
K
The UK motorised before WWII, and MMG units had to be truck-mounted for operational and administrative movements--you couldn't march long distances with their weapons. But, motorised troops of all nations usually got out of their vehicles for tactical movements--staying mounted was asking for trouble in the vicinity of the enemy--and the weapons and ammo load meant that MMG troops couldn't run like regular infantry could. So they walked. The Indian MMG units used pack animals for operational and administrative movements.
RE: Query re Empire Land units
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:07 pm
by JeffroK
3rd (Jhelum) Indian Bde served on the NW Frontier and became Frontier Reserve Bde on 15/8/1943.
On 1/1/42 it included 4/3 Gurkha Rifles, 9/10 Baluch. Maybe more, my info isnt 100%.
Many of the "Frontier Bdes" had more than 3 Bns, I'll get the OOB's listed soon.