Matrix Games Forums

sounds good, you use the term sea area.. I asume this  is a larger area than a hex?

If you look at the image above, the dark blue lines separate the sea areas. For example, there are 3 in the Mediterranean. The ocean ones tend to be bigger.

Cheers, Neilster

Just thought it worth a mention that in many cases naval combat can and often is avoided for an impulse, eg when a patrolling inferior force surprises a superior one and uses that surprise to duck out of the combat. All the vessels remain in their requisite sea boxes for possible engagements next impulse, useful to do when you have reinforcements to place into that sea area.

you have reinforcements to place into that sea area.

sorry poor wording

Should be more like have fresh (undisrupted) naval forces available to move into that sea area next impulse.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
So, if there are naval units from both sides in a sea area, both sides can try to initiate combat every impulse. Although a player may want to have naval combat, it depends on whether the enemy forces 'see' each other.

Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area.

The search rolls depend on the weather conditions, whether air units are involved (land based or carrier based), and the sea boxes the naval fleets are in. The higher the numbered sea box, the more active the fleet is in patrolling the sea area and the more likely they are to see the enemy. To place your fleet in a high numbered sea box you have to have started your fleet in a nearby port and/or have naval units with high mobility. There is ample opportunity for surprise to occur too, either because one side just declared war on the other (e.g., Pearl Harbor) or because one side was close (US at Midway) and the other side travelled a longer distance (Japan at Midway).

If naval combat occurs, it is not over after one round. Should both players decide to stay in the sea area, another set of search rolls takes place and additional rounds of combat can occur in that 1 impulse. There can be many of rounds of combat in an impulse if both players want to continue to contest the sea area. Every subsequent impulse the phasing player can bring more naval units into the sea area, and both sides can bring additional land based air units (if there are any still available). And then they can have at it again.

Land based air units can also be brung at each new round.

Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area
 
 
ok, so you are saying that they are vulnerable only if moved? that is not logical! or maybe it has to do with the phases.. boy I hate that word, why not stages? anyway.. interesting, maybe I will read the manual... will the computerized version manual be different? seems it would have to be?

No, the computerised manual will not be different regarding to the rules aspect of the game, apart from a few specialised cases where the electronic game differs from the physical one. (for example the rulings for drawing chits in the computer game doesn't have to take into account that there is a finite number of paper pieces as it is in the board game.)

Anyhow, as to your question - in your own impulse, your naval units are only vulnerable if you move them or if you use them to try to find your enemy. In your opponent's impulse your ships are always vulnerable providing that the opponent has chosen an action that lets her search at sea. And as a turn (2 months game time) ususally has several impulses for both sides there is plenty of opportunity to send the enemy to the bottom of the ocean, if that is your priority - or for her to decimate your navy of course.

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area


ok, so you are saying that they are vulnerable only if moved? that is not logical! or maybe it has to do with the phases.. boy I hate that word, why not stages? anyway.. interesting, maybe I will read the manual... will the computerized version manual be different? seems it would have to be?

Stages can't be used because in WiF a turn consists of:

Stages (REINFORCEMENT STAGE, LENDING RESOURCES STAGE, INITIATIVE STAGE, ACTION STAGE, and etc.)

Steps (the sequence things happen durring a stage Ie. Declare War, Perform Actions, and etc.).

Impulses (each player has an Impulse where they execute actions durring the ACTION STAGE - Performs Actions Step. Then they check for the end of the turn. If the turn ends you perform the END OF TURN STAGE).


The "Phasing" player is easier to say than "the player performing their actions durring their Impulse within an ACTION STAGE - Performs Actions Step".

I dont know if this is VIP or even mentioned before but I was thinking about this the other day ..
As I remember the Naval CRT .. the ability of 1 or 2 ships to damage the enemy rises or falls by the amount of enemy ships present in a battle .
While I really think the mechanics of Naval battles is great .. always has been ..

I can't help but think maybe what ADG did was start with a baseline and go from there ..
As I think about this more I have come to the conclusion ...
That .. not only do ships have a range and speed factor ... but I think it should be taken into account that a CA or CL against a BB or BC will not have the initiative and the BB or BC will shoot first because of the range of guns .. I would hope that this is looked into ..
As I have said I was thinking about this the other day .. from what I remember that is ..
IDG

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards
I dont know if this is VIP or even mentioned before but I was thinking about this the other day ..
As I remember the Naval CRT .. the ability of 1 or 2 ships to damage the enemy rises or falls by the amount of enemy ships present in a battle .
While I really think the mechanics of Naval battles is great .. always has been ..

I can't help but think maybe what ADG did was start with a baseline and go from there ..
As I think about this more I have come to the conclusion ...
That .. not only do ships have a range and speed factor ... but I think it should be taken into account that a CA or CL against a BB or BC will not have the initiative and the BB or BC will shoot first because of the range of guns .. I would hope that this is looked into ..
As I have said I was thinking about this the other day .. from what I remember that is ..
IDG

A couple of things here.

- The ability of a naval unit to damage another does depend on the number of units involved in the action. However, which naval units are used depends on the die rolls and who sees whom. Units in higher numbered sea boxes are more likely to be involved in the combat. That addresses the units' speed, range, and how far from port they are.

- In addition, when only one side finds the other, then the surprising side gets to choose which sea boxes are in the combat; and often also gets to choose whether combat occurs at all and which type of combat.

- Having air units lets you choose a naval air combat, which can be very hard on the side that is outnumbered (more attackers coming in, less fighter protection, and less anti-aircraft protection).

- Even if it is a simple surface combat with only a few ships against many (as you propsed) the defender gets to choose targets (unless surprised). That enables the player who has a lot of ships engaged to decide whether to risk the battleships (which have a better chance of receiving less damge) or instead place CAs and Cls in harm's way.

If the few ships are in a high numbered sea box, they are less likely to be engaged in combat, or might surprise the larger force. If the few ships are in a low numbered sea box, then they are likely to be destroyed without inflicting much damage, if any, on the larger force. In any event, the odds are not in their favor of the naval combat being a pleasant experience for the side with fewer ships.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3rd and last in the series.

I didn't think that Kaga and Akagi participated in the attack on Pearl; I thought it was just Shokaku, Zuikaku, Soryu and Hiryu. Am I wrong?

ORIGINAL: po8crg
I didn't think that Kaga and Akagi participated in the attack on Pearl; I thought it was just Shokaku, Zuikaku, Soryu and Hiryu. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are.
All 6 were at Pearl Harbor.

ORIGINAL: freeboy

ok, so you are saying that they are vulnerable only if moved? that is not logical! or maybe it has to do with the phases.. boy I hate that word, why not stages? anyway.. interesting, maybe I will read the manual... will the computerized version manual be different? seems it would have to be?

Freeboy, I would recommend having a look at the manual, its not an immediately easy game to pick up the ideas of. I think the point to note is that its a very strategic level game so that an awful lot of action is boiled down to a small number of rolls. But even within one step of one impulse within a turn (ie perhaps a period of a few days in real terms) quite long intense and detailed battles can be depicted.

Steve, I think this illustrates that you would be advised to get the tutorials proof read by people who dont know Wif to get some really meaningful information on how useful they are.

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards

I dont know if this is VIP or even mentioned before but I was thinking about this the other day ..
As I remember the Naval CRT .. the ability of 1 or 2 ships to damage the enemy rises or falls by the amount of enemy ships present in a battle .
While I really think the mechanics of Naval battles is great .. always has been ..

I can't help but think maybe what ADG did was start with a baseline and go from there ..
As I think about this more I have come to the conclusion ...
That .. not only do ships have a range and speed factor ... but I think it should be taken into account that a CA or CL against a BB or BC will not have the initiative and the BB or BC will shoot first because of the range of guns .. I would hope that this is looked into ..
As I have said I was thinking about this the other day .. from what I remember that is ..
IDG

There is a lot of the background to the naval system described in the original Ships in Flames supplement, (which is actually pre Final Edition so not very useful now but still quite interesting).

A great deal of thinking went into boiling a huge amount of ship stats into four or five figures on each individual naval unit. Surface attack factors took into account number & calibre of guns, rate of fire (inversely proportional, so 10x 11" guns with smaller shells and higher rate of fire approximately same effect as 8x12" guns), ship speed & manoueverability, fire control, radar etc. Range of gunnery was taken into account as was even things like potential angle of shell impact...

Defence was also detailed, looking at amount and location of armour plate both horizontal and vertical, again ship speed, propensity to explode at the first sight of the enemy (HMS Hood)

So to answer your query, yes range and tactical speed are taken into account of within the ship factors.

1.....I think that it is wrong too say that a 6 turn BB takes 12 turns to build ........ when it taken 13 turns .....6 turns + 1 turn in the construction pool + 6 turns .... 13 turns ..... it is importen for production planning ..... eks.. if you need the amph in nov/dec 41 when it is summer i north monsum.... it is importen that you know that you have to start them 9 turns before not 8 turns ....... just my point.....
2....the tutorial is great ..... but I think that the transport/invasion page is to simpel .... there is 3 rules ......... normal + the scs option + the amph option .... it is vital rules ..... maybe 2 pages....

but steve REALY nice job [:)][:)][:)]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

1.....I think that it is wrong too say that a 6 turn BB takes 12 turns to build ........ when it taken 13 turns .....6 turns + 1 turn in the construction pool + 6 turns .... 13 turns ..... it is importen for production planning ..... eks.. if you need the amph in nov/dec 41 when it is summer i north monsum.... it is importen that you know that you have to start them 9 turns before not 8 turns ....... just my point.....

It's 12 turns, because the ship does not stay 1 turn in the Construction Pool. It enter this Pool at the reinforcement stage, which is at the start of the 6th turn of its construction, and can be put into second cycle during the production stage which is at the end of this same 6th turn.
[/quote]

you are right...... I counted wrong ......

but the point of more turorial about transport/invasions is still importent

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

but the point of more turorial about transport/invasions is still importent

Maybe include the diagram I made in the thread about Naval Transports (tm.asp?m=1491440)

yes ..... but maybe another tutorial ...... an advanced combat .... .invasions shorebombardmnet... weather ....notorial ....advanced naval combat