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I agree that a plan could be to make the subs more durable increasing their survivability and/or make them more cheap to use as a strategy. What I am not sure I agree about is that sometimes "realism" means that Axis and Allies must do the exact same strategies like they did in real WW2.

Demanding that Axis follow a historical buildup of forces and strategies would also by the same logic mean that Axis should not be able to win without trying to bomb Britain or to try and win Africa to get the oil in mid east?

Strategies shoudl be balanced so that there exist several to choose from that can win the game and here I agree and we will balance the units further if necessary [:)]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.



But if turn-based is the problem, the obvious solution is a WEGO approach; but that would be asking too much of a game revision for just naval/sub tactics.

One obvious solution yes, but decidely not a workable one with the present turn based system.

What I suggested above MIGHT be a more workable solution where only those units truly escorting (ie..adjacent to the convoy) could automatically "find" the sub to attack it. Interseptors reacting from long distance would have only a minute chance to find the sub. This would prevent the Allied player, be it human or AI from stationing "reaction wolfpacks" at intervals across the compressed Atlantic and actually have to parcel out his navy to the job of escorting.

This alone would alter the dynamic considerably. Subs attacking heavily escorted convoys would be very vulnerable, while subs finding lightly escorted, or unescorted convoys would have the historical field day.

I actually started this thread ....
In the hope that the whole naval war would be included in a more balanced aspect ...
As it stands now, and I have mentioned this before ... It is very difficult to incorporate the different theaters in a WW2 game ...
As far as the overall scope is concerned I am still finding ...
And I just hope someone says something like .. ahh .. well .. You just haven't played enough ... [X(] That would be a riot .... [8|]

As far as playability goes ... all works fairly well ........ But .....
Allies can and do wreak havoc in many different situations on board in the naval war ....
Leading to basically no naval war ... which in itself takes a huge part of WW2 and throws it in the trash ....
I just used my entire Allied fleet to utterly devestate the Italian navy before they even had a chance to move ... [:-]
This is because of when they join ... Which is now earlier in some cases ... Big smook so what ... Even if you have to DoW Italy to use the Allied fleet to kill the Italian navy ... no penalty whatsoever ....
In the game I have mentioned .. I have killed the 2 U-boats in the NA ....
Then sent the most of the fleet to the Med .. July 1940 .. France is still holding ...
Italian fleet now consists of a 3 factor BB ... Next turn .. I will chase him to Trieste and he will also die ... [:'(]

Is this balanced ... [&:] Even plausible to send BB .. DD and subs into a port to attack the fleet ... There has to be a defensive capacity ... This should also include BB just bombarding the hell out of land units in cities .... entrenched ...

I have and will continue to give numerous examples .. And in the meantime I will plan the next phase of the Italian nightmare ...
Which will be the Invasion of Italy before they are even in the war ...
I am fairly sure I can take Italy out in 1 turn ... Just a matter of getting the right pointy units in the proper places and proper times ... [&o]
IDG

Once again a "Blast from the Past", Rambo Rome Gambit.
 
Now just wait for the UK and French to DoW Low Countries and take them in one turn while Germany is attacking Poland.

I am thinking we will make the low countries "pro-allied" so you cannot attack them as allies, on the other hand I dont know if you might not be able to turn it to your advantage as axis, if you were clever enough.  Have not tried it

Yep .. Sea gets it .. Thats a BJ Rambo move ... [X(]
Lets just move the BB's from there docks and then attack em w Inf invading ...
Worst is he did it with ... KaNaDiAnS ...
Oh Dear ...
I guardantee all minors spheer of influence ...

IDG

Building a few extra troops as Italy during the neutral period should prevent the Allies from getting too far on land. On sea, why not leave the Italian navy off-map until the first turn Italy is active? Probably too hard to code, but just a thought. Otherwise, another house rule would seem to be in order.

Johan

I have been playing with the game and have successfully blocked the atlantic (for the most part) by having 5 subs going from north west to south east and 3 or 3 subs behind this wall.

The wall of subs detect convoys and keep their eyes peeled for escorts and the 2 or 3 behind attack. Generally speaking they can destroy the convoy BEFORE the escorts turn up, other times I simply weaken it and let it go on their way for fear of being attacked by a convoy.

So, im (revised) o, there is the ability to successfully have a "wolfpack" strategy.

Subs are not too expensive, they do not take too long to build and they can be effective.

I do think the combat results are a little porked for the reason I mentioned in a previous post

• a battleship wandered into my sub hex and the combat result was 2-1 in the battleships favour...for a start because it was surprised, the sub should've came off better and also, being a sub v a battleship (as acknowledged by you) the the battleship is less effective against subs...so it appears, in that particular instance, that the combat is porked

However, with reference to my initial view of subs being a waste of resources, I am willing to stand corrected.

That sounds good Judge and that is also why we are trying to make modest changes to not overcompensate and swing the game the other way around. We want as detailed observations as possible so if you find anything more on this issue pls post it.

I think we all want some random variation to battles and that is why that 2-1 in favour of the BB happened in the battle. Save before a battle and rerun it 10 times and you will see that maybe 8 times out of 10 the sub will be winning the battle over the BB but in the other 2 cases where BB gets lucky well that is just the way we want it so that the game is not too predictable [8D]

I was thinking though there are some significant disadvantages to Allies attacking low countries.  One is that forever more, once the Axis takes them, they get full instead of half value.  That is 6 PP more every turn the rest of the game.  Not to mention the casualties they save in not fighting them - to me it seems like a pretty big gamble.

I thought minors were 50% .. so thats only 3 per turn ...
Also I am pretty sure Judge D is playing the AI ... Or am I wrong ...
IG

ORIGINAL: Irish Guards

I thought minors were 50% .. so thats only 3 per turn ...
Also I am pretty sure Judge D is playing the AI ... Or am I wrong ...
IG

Judge D is playing with himself I think, base your comments against "real people"

"F" the AI, its not a bad game human on human!

Depends ... On who ya play I guess ... [:D]
Ya just might need a pair when ya shite u pants ... [X(]
What a riot .. how much Scatch Johnny ..
IDG

Yes I'm playing AI

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser

I have 3 to 4 subs on patrol off Newfoundland and in the south Atlantic, and boy do they maul the convoys. Before the destroyers come close they bite half or more of the produktion points out of the convoy. Some get through, of course. I am in 1941 currently. I am thinking of building a lot more subs due to their successes.

Compare this w/what happened to HansBolter's subs vs. the AI off New Foundland re 1940/41; very different results due to different game settings?

I admit it: I am playing on easy settings (beginner, don't want to get myself nauled by the AI before I understand the game mechanics). I am well into 1943 now, and I am taking heavy sub losses.

The minor is 50% only if you attack it - if it joins the Axis because the Allies attacked, then it would be 100% for the Axis!

Which means you get 3 extra per turn .... right .. [8|]
Nay 6 ..
IG

6 if you count both Holland and Belgium

Who said anything about Holland ...
IG

earlier there was discussion of that, but in any case, the point still stands.