Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Is it me or is taking a few actual battle results and declaring them the norm been done and found to be rather inaccurate?

LOL that's why I chose an early battle. Flak losses are far worse later in the war.

Jim

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Is it me or is taking a few actual battle results and declaring them the norm been done and found to be rather inaccurate?

LOL that's why I chose an early battle. Flak losses are far worse later in the war.

Jim

I just meant in general. There has got to be a better way.

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DISCLAIMER: This is meant to give everyone a bit on insight. A preview, if you will, of what is going on behind the curtain. WE ARE IN BETA. Whatever dynamics, trends, paradigms you detect or disagree with are subject to change. Let's not ruin this for everyone. This is not intended to foster debate or support anyone's agenda. Mostly just enjoy and take the time to learn about what is in store with AE.
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Poor old Elf. Did his best to avoid us all getting into a full blown debate. But alas....we are gamers. We whinge!

When you look at the results:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-21 Zero x 8
B5N2 Kate x 42
D3A1 Val x 38

Total: 88 A/C

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 14 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged

Totoal destroyed: 19 (22%), Total damaged: 33 (38%). Final tally: 52 or 60%

Your not too far off the speculative estimate

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
Your not too far off the speculative estimate

I said 30% - 60% of bombers attacking the targets get destroyed by flak, the rest (or most of the rest) damaged. Counting those shot down by CAP isn't part of those percentages. Of the 63 bombers that attacked targets, only 3 were flak losses according to his screenshot comments. That's why we see so many bomb hits.

Jim

AND - at Santa Cruz there were additional AA upgrades in place plus the presence of a whopping big (in AA terms) US fast battleship.

I'm feeling pretty good about the results Elf is showing us here.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

AND - at Santa Cruz there were additional AA upgrades in place plus the presence of a whopping big (in AA terms) US fast battleship.

I'm feeling pretty good about the results Elf is showing us here.

OK let’s look at the Battle of the Coral Sea.

I don’t know the specifics as to strike packages, but I do know that 69 Japanese planes (includes the fighters I think) attacked and 27 were lost. Most of these were probably bombers, so an educated guess would be well above 50% destroyed if the fighters are not counted.

I don’t think any air to air CAP intercepts were made because the few fighters in the air were vectored to the wrong altitude and were too close to their ships to be of much use due to being low on fuel. Many were landing or already landing and being refueled when the attack occurred, so we can assume most of the 27 were flak losses, if not all of them.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/st/~mic ... .what.html

Jim

If we're going to compare Elf's results to history, why the reliance on figures from Midway and Santa Cruz? It would seem the proper comparison would be to Coral Sea. One web site indicates the Japanese lost 43 planes on May 8th, but doesn't distinguish which were lost to CAP, AAA, damage aboard Shokaku, ops losses, etc. Hopefully somebody can pull up something more useful.
 
I would agree that the Flak losses do seem a lot lighter than one would expect, but keep in mind that we're looking at a sample size of one. It seems reasonable to expect that the AE team has been studying flak results as part of their beta testing.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I don’t know the specifics as to strike packages, but I do know that 69 Japanese planes (includes the fighters I think) attacked and 27 were lost. Most of these were probably bombers, so an educated guess would be well above 50% destroyed if the fighters are not counted.

I don’t think any air to air CAP intercepts were made because the few fighters in the air were vectored to the wrong altitude and were too close to their ships to be of much use due to being low on fuel. Many were landing or already landing and being refueled when the attack occurred, so we can assume most of the 27 were flak losses, if not all of them.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/st/~mic ... .what.html

Jim

The website below has better information on the nature of the Japanese strike, but unfortunately does not provide numbers. In this view CAP was an active factor, and appears to account for many of the Japanese a/c loses:

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_05-04-42_coral-sea.html

Ok this site gives CAP details:

23 Dauntless dive bombers shot down 4 torpedo-planes (the rest of the CAP was out of position), so 23 of the 27 destroyed are from flak. Though it doesn't say how many of the 69 are zeroes.

http://www.microworks.net/PACIFIC/battles/coral_sea.htm

Jim

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Ok this site gives CAP details:

23 Dauntless dive bombers shot down 4 torpedo-planes (the rest of the CAP was out of position), so 23 of the 27 destroyed are from flak. Though it doesn't say how many of the 69 are zeroes.

I'm seeing conflicting information as to AA vs. Cap losses (look at pages 68-71). The strike package numbers were "twenty fighters and seventy attack planes". The one thing everyone agrees on is that Japanese losses were 27 aircraft:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bNtS8A ... A1-PA69,M1

As an interesting side note, the same book notes that the Japanese strikes on Neosho and Sims cost them six planes. Obviously there was no CAP in that engagement and the AA had to be paltry in comparison to that Carrier Task force, yet it still claimed six planes.

CORAL SEA Continues...

Immediately following the brutal attack of CARDIV 5, Shoho launches her small AirGroup less 6 CAP Zekes. The strike is extremely effective, finding both American CVs in the throws of pitched damage control battles and blind without Radar. The Airborne CAP of 6 Cats does well to bag 2 Zekes from the meager escort, but fails to cut into the Strikers. The result is a 33% hit rate for the Shoho Kates. Lex seems all but doomed.


The Shoho takes advantage of a an enemy while it's down...

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Cooktown at 98,138

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-21 Zero x 6
B5N2 Kate x 6


Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires


Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EIII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EIII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

From this example looks like strikes may be more brutal on the receiver.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Remember that Miss Betty carries a very teeny-tiny bombload.

Its the damn torpedo she carry's thats the problem [:(]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

From this example looks like strikes may be more brutal on the receiver.

It's not as bad as it looks. FoW is on. Lex is not in too bad a shape. At least not for having received 4 torpedoes. She'll make port and fight again.

Is it possible to turn FOW on and off - also during a game, not just at the beginning?
Is it possible to turn FOW on/off just for the combat reports?
If not, would any of the above be possible through modding?

In Elf's last example it looks like the Zeke's did a good job of protecting the bombers and keeping the Wildcats busy...Nice..So much damage to the bombers with the escort, It would be a waste to send un-escorted bombers against a defended target.

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Is it possible to turn FOW on and off - also during a game, not just at the beginning?
Is it possible to turn FOW on/off just for the combat reports?
If not, would any of the above be possible through modding?

No, no and no.

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In Elf's last example it looks like the Zeke's did a good job of protecting the bombers and keeping the Wildcats busy...Nice..So much damage to the bombers with the escort, It would be a waste to send un-escorted bombers against a defended target.

Plus, there's also now a significant risk of unescorted bombers turning back before reaching the target, or inbound strikes breaking up into smaller packets.

Its going to be interesting.