For someone who did his service in Artillery and who also enjoys the Campaign Series from the Talonsoft days, this topic has been an interesting read.
Thank you for sharing the information. I just wanted to add my 0.02. My apologies for non-native english...
I also wanted to do some additional research in addition to my personal experiences.
As always, it proved that very good summaries are already available. So instead of writing the thing myself, I will just make some brief points. Actually, the lazy sob that I am I finally decided to refer to another internet forum discussion instead... [>:]
The purpose of this post is to add some (hopefully) interesting pieces of information to the generic discussion of Artillery in JTCS. My basic point is to evaluate what was possible to achieve i) during six minutes ii) with WW II equipment and doctrines and add some personal experiences in top of that.
As I mentioned I did my eleven months in the artillery. Our particular arty unit was trained to support operations both at land and at sea. Interestingly, still in mid-eighties, we not only studied but also practiced the old manual procedures that date back to WW II. I do not know whether this was a plan B against EPM weaponry or just something that adds to theory behind arty, but so it was.
So, I practiced the WW II based doctrines. Heck, in our day-to-day operations we still used the trusty old Soviet model 76 mm guns from WW II days to save our actual 130 mm's from wear and tear...
To add to my background, I do not know how it translates but basically I was responsible for calculalting the directions for my battery's four guns, based on the target information I receiced. I also received and forwarded the commands from the commanding officer to guns.
I am not, and have not been working in Army. I am just a civilian. It was twenty years ago. So do not take this too seriously... [:'(]
First, thanks timshin42 for a good summary regarding what arty can do, and for Lesbaker how they actually did it. My intention is to build on with a few examples, based on these postings.
Second, instead of links to Wiki or elsewhere, I thought this discussion I found is as good summary as any regarding the Finnish WW II tactics:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=139608
The discussion basically states everything I wanted to say. My thanks to "JariL", whoever you are
Here we go:
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The main changes in the artillery doctrine during Continuation War (1941 - 1944) were:
1) Use of maps in determining target co-ordinates
2) Development of claculation tool ("korjausmuunnin")
2) Combining all available artillery and mortars under one artillery commander
3) Making FO's "independent"
Basically the idea with the new doctrine was that the FO should be relieved from making any calculations. He should be able to control fire as if he was firing through direct sights. All calculations were to be done in battery positions. To make this fine idea work a new way of calculating values for the cannons was needed. The result was a calculation tool that in Finnish was called "korjausmuunnin".
FO gave target co-ordinates from the map together with distance and direction to the battery. Based on this information the calculation tool was placed on top of the map so that it formed a triangle where battery position was one corner, the target another and the position of the FO the third. The beuaty of it all was that the FO did not need to know where the shooting cannons were. In the matter of fact he did not even need to know which batteries were shooting. In practise this meant that any FO, or actually anyone with a map and acces to radio or telephone, could give firing commands to artillery.
It did not take too long for the troops to realise that as the FO's were no longer bound to one artillery unit, it was possible to combine several artillery units into one whos support could be called by any FO within the shooting range of the artillery units. Heavy mortar units could also be attached to the system as they used the same shooting method. An additional bonus was that FO's who had been a scarce resource all of the sudden became an abundant resource. FO's could be easily attached to and detached from other units when needed.
When the hole thing was formalized all available artillery in a sector was combined under one artillery commander who decided in which order and with what strength each request from FO's was answered. Fire could be prepared in advance if there was time but the system made it possible to start effect shooting within 2 to 5 minutes to unprepared targets as well.
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Indeed. When I knew the location the FO was reporting from, I could very quickly, with a map, manually determine the location of the target. Then I calculated the directions for our battery's use, and gave it to my four subordinates who then quickly determined the exact bearings for their individual guns to use. Each gun would then individually fire volleys against a single ship, for an example.
I cannot of course have personal experience to confirm the sector wide combined use of artillery and mortar units but that is a historical fact that can be looked up. I am too lazy to bother... Sorry [:)] But the point is that it was a normal practice towards the end of the war to ensure a maximum effect with minimum resources.
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Finnish artillery pre-plotted targets when possible, but due to its effective methods it could also be directed to hit any target within range very fast. After improvements introduced in 1943 (mainly "korjausmuunnin" aka "corrections converter", which gave values needed for adjusting fire immediately.) While Finnish artillery rarely did direct-fire missions, these were not unknown either. Direct-fire missins were usually handled by units equipped with 76-mm infantry guns (like 76 LK/10-13 and 76 RK/27). Instead of direct fire the popular method for destroying individual targets in the frontline was "tikkausammunta" ("pin-prick shooting") for which usually heavy or super-heavy howitzer suitably far from the immediate frontline was used and FO-team in the fronline adjusted its fire after each shot until the target was hit - with experienced FO-team and howitzer crew this could be done with as little as just three shots per target.
<-- snip -->
We, a basic and simple arty unit, were very efficient against moving sea targets as well. Typically, our FO gave targets not for the towed target raft but towards an area some 50 m behind it, as when given the correct information the very first volley often destroyed the raft (that could be e.g. 5 km forward from our positions).
Regarding the time needed to do this, I can personally back up the 2 to 5 minute time frame against unprepared targets the discussion mentions.
Finally, the beauty of the thing was that indeed the FO did not have to anything about the participating batteries nor where they were. When not using preplanned targets, he just gave his position and the the target, following the results and adjusting accordingly:
<-- snip -->
"...all corrections by the FO were given in meters not in degrees. Thus if the fire missed the target by 200 m to the left seen from the position of the FO the correction was "right 200".
<-- snip -->
[Edit]
Here is a pic of the calculation tool/correction converter. Ahh, the nostalgy. As seen from the pic, the tool was placed on a map, based on our battery position. The FO position was taken into account using the movable circular unit in the tool. After this, his firing orders were manually calculated by us in a manner of a few seconds...
http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/korjausmuunnin.gif
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So, from my personal experience from some twenty years ago, I can assure you that "realistically", during a time frame of let us say 12 minutes (two turns, right), I could be directing my four guns towards a sea moving target, then participate (OK, just for a few rounds but this is an example, right) in a preplanned rolling barrage, then point my four guns to silence a pesky AT position that the commanding artillery officer determines to be a valid target.
So, again, just my 0,02 as what "realistic" WW II artillery can achieve.
As for the CS arty spotting, I leave it to everyone to make their own conclusions.
But of course, here is my top three-list regarding artillery in CS [X(]
If you change it, why don't you make a difference as well. And of course, please as an option
First, I do not believe the heavier arty is modeled to be effective enough against soft targets in an open position. It should just murder any soft targets that get in its way.
Why don't you give it some real power so it alone could break absolute havoc when used properly? This is an option, right? Or make it capable firing three times per turn if not changing targets? Just some first ideas, no offense...
Secondly, (and my only comment regarding the original topic...) "FO's who had been a scarce resource all of the sudden became an abundant resource".
I would model the spotting rule perhaps in a way that any unit with a radio can spot artillery? At least towards the later scenarios?
Thirdly - and this is my personal favorite: I would allow Indirect fire to participate in
direct fire if a targeted unit is spotted with some one who has a radio [8D]
I can guarantee that if I would have been informed that a pesky AT section is halting our advance, it would have shells coming towards it in a manner of minutes. And this definitively would give the game some new perspectives
I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing this!
[Edit]
Come to think of it, arty and mortar fire as such is modeled quite well in the engine. What I would suggest for my Extreme Artillery (why not? [8D] ) optional rule would be that
i) The combined total of attacking SPs would be calculated for the hex under fire, and one massive attack result calculated, instead of the number of separate attacks currently in place.
This would model the effect of concentrated barrage on a target. If player indeed chooses to concentrate his/her arty fire power the results should be in relation to that. This would also model the short period of six minutes of time, which is not a long time, but still all guns firing into same hex would cause a lot of destruction.
ii) Either make the first platoon with radio able to call artillery (as they would radio the commander, who would in turn radio the artillery commander of the sector), or, perhaps in order to have more fun with this option: put a separate FO officer in game (one per battalion?). The latter would just for the fun of it make it possible to
iii) Make artillery available as direct fire, when target is spotted by the
FO unit directly. This would be fun in a manner that the schwerpunkt could have massive artillery support (ie. Extreme Arty) immediately available to them, as long as the FO is alive and well, and sees the target himself.
Just my 0.02 of course.
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