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I've got a book at home that goes into detail of the Operation Sealion plans; the general opinion of everyone was that had the invasion taken place, it would have been disastrous for the Germans.
 
They intended to use every Channel ferry they could get their hands on to carry troops, horses (yes, horses) and vehicles, but that wasn't nearly enough.  So, they decided to use river barges that were towed by minesweepers, ferries and tugboats as well.  The towing ship would cast off the lines and the barge was supposed to drift to shore and ground before the troops/vehicles could unload.
 
Supplies would be carried by merchant ships that would sit off shore for days while lighters and other small craft would unload them.
 
Since they never had enough craft to carry all the divisions they wanted at one time, the plan was to surge a maximum number of men across in the first wave, then return for more with the motorized vessels.  However, each transit of the Channel was very roundabout to avoid minefields and shoals, so a one way trip could take 36 hours for the slow moving ferries.
 
Naval defense forces consisted of their remaining DD's and torpedo boats, U-boats and a heavy mine barrier in the west approaches of the Channel, plus a strong Luftwaffe presence.  No heavy ships were involved in screening the landing forces; IIRC the fear of grounding and mines kept them out of the Channel.
 
All of this was predicated on the Luftwaffe destroying the RAF and then somehow neutralizing the RN.  However, the RN's base at Scapa Flow was out of range of the Luftwaffe, and there were too many smaller bases on both sides of Britain for the Luftwaffe to completely destroy or close.  The RN studies mentioned in my book indicate that if an invasion had taken place, ships as large as County class CA's would have tried to force the German defenses in the Channel, and even a single DD in the middle of towed barges and ferries would have wreaked havoc.  And the RN had plenty of destroyers...

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Well, that was true during the Napoleonic Wars and even in WW1. But you must not ignore the revolutionary changes in WW2: the plane (best cheap ship killer) & the tank that is.

I am sorry, I did not intend the quote to be taken literally, I just drew the parallel that Napoleon could not cross the Channel in 1805 and I believe that Hitler could not cross in 1940.

In 1941 the world was astounded by the effects of the attack on Pearl Harbor and the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse, this is because up until that time air attack on ships on that scale had not been that effective. It was after 1940 that the Germans established Fliegerkorps X, as a specialist anti-ship unit, which was very effective in the Mediterranean.

In 1940 I don't think the Luftwaffe would have been that effective against ships at sea, to repeat the point, the Luftwaffe could not stop the evacuation from Dunkirk, even when a large number of the ships were unarmed and slow. There would have been an increase in capability, as they improved their bases in France, but at that time I don't think there had been much emphasis on anti-shipping strikes. The Luftwaffe was mainly a tactical airforce to support land operations.

The Dunkirk evacuation took place over many days, the RN would only have to get in amongst the invasion barges once, to cause irreplaceable losses, or bombard the invasion ports at night to do terminal damage. Aerial photos show the barges packed into small French channel ports, they had to be concentrated for the invasion and dispersal would have meant longer sea voyages to their objectives, increasing the risk of interception.

[:)][:)]

As has been noted the Germans may well have tried to establish a mine barrier in the Channel. During the Falklands War in 1982 the British invasion fleet was preparing to enter San Carlos Water, but did not know if it was mined. Admiral Woodward did not have any anti-mine capability, so he contacted one of his frigate captains and asked him to take his ship through the channel that night, without saying why. The captain realised the problem and said, 'I suppose you want me to sail around a bit to see if there are any mines' before going off to do just that. In 1940 the RN would have swept into the English Channel, led by a horde of old WW1 destroyers to do the same job.

[:)]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ENOUGH ALREADY.   Why not just say that if Chamberlin's spine hadn't been made of cream cheese, the German Army would have done away with Hitler in 1938 and there wouldn't have been any War?  [:'(]

I don't think that trying to negotiate out of what was going to be the most destructive war in history has anything to do with cream cheese. Where was the US of A while democracy was going down the tubes. The German army was not going to do away with Hitler, as he had given them so much and promised much more. The only way to solve these problem may be boots on the ground, but only after you have tried absolutely everything else.
[:)]

Actually, you should study the political history more closely. The Russians had already offerred to close ranks with the British and French (the Poles were understandably reluctant to grant them passage. The Wehrmacht knew it was't ready for a war with Britian, France, and Czechoslovakia (and potentially Russia), and a large conspiracy existed to remove Hitler if he attempted to order it.

Chamberlin proved to be the best "bodyguard" Hitler ever had, when his desperate grab for "peace in our time" made the Fuhuer look like an unstoppable political genious, and the Western Powers like a "paper tiger". Stalin decided to have nothing further to do with such unreliable powers as Britian and France (who'd just sold the Czechs "down the river") and began thinking about siding with the "winner". And the Wehrmacht plot fell apart when it seemed that Hitler "had the number" of his opponants and might well win all of Germany's desires politically. They'd look like fools trying a revolt against Germany's most successful leader since Bismarck.

ORIGINAL: borner

It would have taken the KB going there to clear out the Royal Navy. Otherwise, what do you do? Run everything across the channel, beach it, and hope you get things unloaded before the RN comes through at night and blasts everything to scrap? You better pray for a short campaign as you sure are not going to get much in the way of supply after the first wave because everything you sent is going to be sunk.

But how much can air tactics adapt and how quickly. It's said that Germany did not have the air power to stop the RN. They certainly had no shortage of Stukas. THey also did have some number, not sure how many, squadrons of HE115.

In the Solomons campaign, the Japanese had quite a bit of success with the Betty making night time anti-shipping sorties, to the point that until the Betties were neutralized it made it difficult for the USN to operate withing Betty range at night.

I'm not so certain that this was an issue that the German's could not have overcome, or planned for, but then we have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. If I were a German army officer I'm may not realize just how powerful my air force was, or how vulnerable capital ships had become to air attack, even at night.

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

Its not only important to consider IF they could have landed the troops, but how and if they could keep them supplied. 
I agree that this whole discussion is based on the assumption that the RAF lost the battle of Britian.
 
The royal navy would have pulled back every ship and sub possible from other fronts to break up the line of supply from france/Netherlands to whatever port the German Army took – and they would need a port.  You can’t fly in a tank or heavy field pieces.       

I agree that supplying the army over a longer period of time is the key to the entire operation, but after having read many of the posts here, and restarting some long dormant memory neurons, I'm convinced that Germany could, if executing Hitler's plan correctly, have established a beach head in Southern England. I'm also confident that if Germany managed to keep its army supplied, it could have beaten the Home Guard defenses.

I'm on the fence as to whether Germany could have neutralized the RN to the point that resupply would remain possible. I think it would be very touch and go at best. Massive airlift might help.

I think the predominant reason Operation Sealion never took place though is because Hitler just wasn't that serious. His respect for the people of the UK was probably a greater deterrent than the RN.

The book I have says that the Germans could have landed troops on Southern England, but only from the first wave and whatever they could airlift in.  Once there, without heavy artillery or armor or regular resupply, they'd be at the mercy of any organized British units brought up against them.  Their plan to resupply and bring over more waves of men was so ludicrous that even the Kriegsmarine officers thought it was lunacy, and the Royal Navy would have gladly sacrificed as many destroyers as needed to destroy the supply lines. 
 
Plus, the RAF could not have been destroyed; there were several more squadrons and wings of fighters out of range of the Luftwaffe that were available if an invasion took place, and the Bomber Command forces would have thrown everything they had at both the German infantry on British soil and the small craft trying to supply them.

Try to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion#Post-war_test_of_the_plan

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Actually, you should study the political history more closely. The Russians had already offerred to close ranks with the British and French (the Poles were understandably reluctant to grant them passage. The Wehrmacht knew it was't ready for a war with Britian, France, and (and potentially Russia), and a large conspiracy existed to remove Hitler if he attempted to order it.

Chamberlin proved to be the best "bodyguard" Hitler ever had, when his desperate grab for "peace in our time" made the Fuhuer look like an unstoppable political genious, and the Western Powers like a "paper tiger". Stalin decided to have nothing further to do with such unreliable powers as Britian and France (who'd just sold the Czechs "down the river") and began thinking about siding with the "winner". And the Wehrmacht plot fell apart when it seemed that Hitler "had the number" of his opponants and might well win all of Germany's desires politically. They'd look like fools trying a revolt against Germany's most successful leader since Bismarck.

Political history and its interpretation has changed constantly as more and more documents are released from archives, for example after the 50 year rule in the UK and the fall of communism in the Soviet Union.

Stalin's intent was to return the Soviet Union to Imperial Russia's pre-1914 borders and then to gain as much additional territory as possible, to activate Russia's strategy of Deep Battle, fought on the territory of the enemy. Before May 1940 six states were occupied by the totalitarian dictatorships and Germany only attacked one of them, Poland. Russia attacked and occupied parts of Finland, Rumania and Poland, and fully occupied Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.

Stalin would negotiate with anyone who would give him what he wanted, Britain had no bargining postion not wanting to give away other people's territory (Munich shows how this option goes). Both Germany and Russia had been defeated in WW1 and had lost territory in the Versailles Treaty. Hitler and Stalin wanted it back and therefore had common cause, the UK had nothing in common with either of them.

The Czechoslovakian Sudetern Land was part of the revision of the Versailles Treaty demanded by Hitler, as he saw it, to reunite the German speaking peoples. It is a tragedy that the Munich agreement was made, but no one was prepared to risk another major war in Europe. The USA, as signatory of the Versailles Treaty, showed no interest and had not joined the League of Nations, which may have stiffened the democracies position. In hindsight action may have worked, but Hitler was the arch propagandist and the stakes were frighteningly high. Alliance with the Soviet Union, whose favorite tactic was to occupy countries to save them from aggression was not a good option, for anybody except Hitler.

In 1938, having participated in the disarmament treaties of the 1930's, the UK was in a weak position to confront Germany and possibibly the Soviet Union. The UK, quite rightly, did not trust the motives of the Soviet Union. It is a further tragedy that Roosevelt did not also take this view in 1945, acting against the advice of Winston Churchill. The people of Eastern Europe have only just finished paying for that mis-judgement. Perhaps the USA did not want to make a stand, fearing re-igniting a destructive war (Chamberlain had felt the same), cream cheese is found on both sides of the Atlantic.

The result is that after doing all that was humanly possible, including losing some of his own honour and other people's liberty, Chamberlain drew a line and stood by it, he prepared the country for war and as was demonstrated in 1940, Britain was ready, but only just. How ready was the USA in 1941.

Actually I find political history very interesting, you should try it sometime.

[:)]

I don’t think Sealion could ever have been successful, no matter what the assumptions. Jumping from an assumption to a ne plus ultra conclusion ignores all the intermediate steps.

What does it mean, to say the RAF lost the BoB? Does it mean that all the planes, pilots, infrastructure, organization etc.. are magically dead? Or just that the Luftwaffe achieved operational freedom and flexibility over an area? There were many portions of the UK that were outside the operational range of the Luftwaffe that could serve as re-organization, re-training sanctuaries, such that the RAF would always provide a threat to a Sealion op.

I don’t care how many minefields you lay, they are tactical and can be overcome by technique, tactics, and a sufficiency of gonads. That’s something I have never heard the RN accused of lacking.

Amphibious operations are so gigantically complex as to begger the imagination. Forget Tarawa, forget Saipan, forget Sicily, this is a country you are talking about, with all the psych factors involved with a 100% hostile environment. The Allied problems in landing 6 divisions, and establishing 16 divisions in Normandy are nothing compared to the problems Germany would face in an invasion of Britian.

The vestigal RAF would fly, and maybe die, but in the interim, they would kill, and kill. The RN would damn the mines and sail, and maybe die, but in the interim, they would kill, and kill. Germany didn’t have the lift.

Nope, couldn’t happen.

ORIGINAL: JWE

Nope, couldn’t happen.

Agree entirely. [:)]

The one gentleman who stated the Germans dropped a corp in one day and a follow up division the next day on Crete must have a totally different text than me.  I have 3 different soucres time life book series on
world war II the Mediterran Book and A general book on WWii ops and also wikipedia.  The final german plan was for 10 k parachutists 750 glider troops 7k naval landing and 5k follow up air reinforcements.  The final plan was to drop on 4 airfields secure 2 of them within 2 - 3 hours have them operational in 4 - 6 more hours and start the 5k air follow up reinforcements comming in the first day.  Maybe the gentleman mixed up fliegerkorps(which are air planes and their troops) part of a luftflotte(air army).  The original plan was for a single big drop on Maleme plan drawn up by the fliegerkorps commander, but changed by
General Student who had final say on all parachute operations.  The force that came in was 7th luft div 8,000 men including the glider troops.  The naval force was turned back by the British navy.  NO airfields taken the first day - Maleme taken during second day and the follow up troops 5th Mountain started comming in by transport and bombers forced into transport role.  It took 3 days for entire 5th mountain and their equipment to get in.  After the 6/7 day Brits realized they couldnot reinforce and the Germans could, so they withdrew 16,000 men to Egypt over the next 4 nights.  If a whole korps had landed on day one with a followup div the second day no Brits would have gotten off.  Final German Casualties were 6800+ mostly parachutists.  Hitler realized he had a great politial victory but on the field a phyrric one.  He then
commanded that on large scale parachute operations were to take place again.  One battalian at Maleme suffered 50% dead (not casualties).  One of the battalian companies suffered 120 casualties out of 145 men.

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: timtom

There was a debate here in the UK a couple of years back after three RUSI scholars presented the heretical view that the BoB wasn't decided by the RAF alone. Tory press - or its readers rather - reacted in predictable fashion, fx comments in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527068 ... scuss.html

After the dust settled, the RUSI lot restates their case:

I remember that, being on an RAF squadron the result was, predictably, total indifference [:D]

EDIT:
The Battle of Britain was won by the RAF, but it was the Royal Navy that saved us from an invasion. The entire point of the BoB was to defeat the RAF so that they would be unable to protect the Royal Navy when they went into battle. If the Royal Navy hadn't been capable of protecting us then the BoB wouldn't have been needed and Ze Germans would probably have come anyway.

RIght-O. The BoB was the first gate in the invasion of England. Had Germany won, i.e. destroyed the RAFs ability to project airpower over southern England, much less the channel, then they would have progressed to stage two, mining of the channel and bombardment of shore defenses. Then its a question of whether the Axis can keep the RN engaged enough elsewhere. Lots of what-ifs, but definitely not out of the realm of possibility.

The fly in the ointment, Hans, the monkey in the wrench, the pain in the buttocks, and the booger in the woodpile, is that the gate don’t open on the garden of Eden. It just opens on yet another garden maze.

Ok, the RAF is defeated. So? Ok, the Germans can actually make it across the channel and land. So?

RAF had sanctuaries where they could re-org and re-build. And they would have come, and come, and come. Those men would have willingly sacrificed their lives to kill and kill. Likewise the RN; those stolid, silent, accepting, self-sacrificing men from Devon and the Midlands. Kill, kill and kill again, for Home and Hearth Strike!!

Sealion didn’t have a freakin prayer. If the Nazi pukes actually landed, it would have become a nice POW camp.

Also, would the RN been a factor, if German Bombers would dealt with it by portstrikes after dealing with the RAF..
They had bomber and escort range to Scapa Flow from Norway, so whole UK was within Bomber range,
Aiganst a prepared UK this would never worked, but aftert the AIR battle of Britain was done and the RAF was destroyed they planned to sink the fleet in its ports... The surviving ships and the mediteranien fleet they planned to hold back by using massive amounts of Bombers based in France.



Well for the ones interested in the Crete Operation, the Germans planned to move in 30 000 men by air over a period of a few days.

Could they moved 60 000 to UK over a period of lets say 14 days if they had total Air Suprimecy ?

Defending the Island were about 27,500 British and Imperial troops, most of which had been recently evacuated from Greece, and 14,000 Greeks under the command of General Bernard C. Freyberg, the commanding General of the New Zealand Division. The original garrison of about 5,000 troops, was fully equipped, however the troops evacuated from Greece were equipped only with the small arms they had saved during the withdrawal. The Greek and Cretan troops were mostly inadequately armed recruits. There were eight medium and sixteen light tanks available on the island and a few personnel carriers.

General Freyburg deployed his ground forces with a view to preventing airborne landings at the three airfields at Maleme, Retimo and Heraklion, (having been alerted to the presence of Paratroops in the area by their use at Cornith canal in Greece.) and seaborne landings in Suda Bay.

During May 1941 the RAF never had more than 36 plans on Crete less than half of which were serviceable. When the German preparatory air attacks began they where unable to operate from their airfields, and their last few plans were withdraw form the island the day before the invasion began.

The Royal Naval forces where based at Suda Bay and were split into two groups, one consisting of two cruisers and four destroyers, which was to intercept the invasion fleet North of Crete, and another with two battleships and eight destroyers which was stationed to the Northwest incase of possible intervention by the Italian Fleet.

Against these defenders General Loehr, the commander of the Fourth Air Force and was in charge of executing Operation Merkur, had the following units. General Von Richthofen’s VII Air Corps, which consisted of 2 medium bomber, 1 dive-bomber, 1 single engine, and I twin engine fighter wings with 150 plans each and 2 reconnaissance groups. The XI Air Corp commanded by General Student which was composed of 10 air transport groups, with approximately 600 troops carriers and 100 gliders, one reconnaissance squadron, the 7th Airborne Division was composed of one assault and three parachute regiments, and was reinforced by 5th Mountain Division, and one regiment of the 6th Mountain Division and several antiaircraft, engineer and medical battalions totaling about 28,000 men. One bombardment group which was to lay mine in the Suez Canal Area. One naval patrol group and one air-sea rescue group.

The plan of attack called for the 7th Airborne Division to be landed in two waves, the first in the morning at Malme airfield and near Canea, the second in the afternoon near the airfields of Retimo and Heraklion. The VIII Air Corp was to provide strong tactical air support during the landings. At H-Hour the first groups of gliders, each carrying one battalion was to land at Malme airfield. The glider troops were to neutralize the remaining ground defenses and protect the descent of the parachute troops. A similar procedure was to be followed near Canea, where the gliders were to land on the beaches.

The second wave was to jump at H plus eight hours over Retimo and Heraklion without the assistance of gliders. On D plus one the mountain troops were to be airlifted into the three airfields.

Wow!  War in the other Pacifics...  The Atlantic Pacific and the Aegean Pacific!

Nah, I just forgot that 9 year old deutchland uber alles, neo nazi pimples tend to inhabit threads like these. Going away now.

ORIGINAL: JWE

The fly in the ointment, Hans, the monkey in the wrench, the pain in the buttocks, and the booger in the woodpile, is that the gate don’t open on the garden of Eden. It just opens on yet another garden maze.

Ok, the RAF is defeated. So? Ok, the Germans can actually make it across the channel and land. So?

RAF had sanctuaries where they could re-org and re-build. And they would have come, and come, and come. Those men would have willingly sacrificed their lives to kill and kill. Likewise the RN; those stolid, silent, accepting, self-sacrificing men from Devon and the Midlands. Kill, kill and kill again, for Home and Hearth Strike!!

Sealion didn’t have a freakin prayer. If the Nazi pukes actually landed, it would have become a nice POW camp.

I can't say I think you're entirely wrong about the POW camp. That said, I think if Hitler hadn't ordered the resources taken away from RAF airfield attacks I think you would have been looking at the defeat of the RAF as a fighting force, at least for a time. The problem was availability of pilots.

ORIGINAL: wwengr

In Norway, the Kriegsmarine lost 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Light Cruiser, 10 Destroyers, and 6 U-boats in the Naval Campaign to land forces in Norway. Many other ships were damaged.

2 Light Cruisers actually. Koingsberg capsized at Bergen as a result of a Skua strike, and her sister Karlsruhe was sunk by HMS Truant the next day as she was returning home.

ORIGINAL: Japan

Also, would the RN been a factor, if German Bombers would dealt with it by portstrikes after dealing with the RAF..
They had bomber and escort range to Scapa Flow from Norway, so whole UK was within Bomber range,
Aiganst a prepared UK this would never worked, but aftert the AIR battle of Britain was done and the RAF was destroyed they planned to sink the fleet in its ports... The surviving ships and the mediteranien fleet they planned to hold back by using massive amounts of Bombers based in France.

I think you are placing way too much faith in this 'capability'. If all the British ports were within escorted bomber range, then why weren't they all successfully bombed i nthe way you claim was possible?

Well for the ones interested in the Crete Operation, the Germans planned to move in 30 000 men by air over a period of a few days.

Could they moved 60 000 to UK over a period of lets say 14 days if they had total Air Suprimecy ?

Even if they planned to do so at Crete they never actually did so.