Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios.

Actually the rules (victory conditions) are different between GC and limited scenarios. This influences strategy and gameplay. "Road to" scenarios are a race against time. If you do this in GC, you can gain much ground before the first Mud and Winter but does it guarantee a win? Maybe playing too much "Road to" scenarios will influence reckless maneuvers in GC, leaving the Axis exhausted and with unsercure supply lines as you lack long term planning.

Also even if you fail Operation Barbarossa, if you do a good defense and prevent Germany from capitulating, it is a Draw for the Grand Campaign. All is not lost because you're not doing well in the 11th turn as the Axis.

Let's not play word games. The rules are the same. The victory conditions are different. There isn't one set of rules for the GC and another set for the other scenarios. Since when is everyone required to play scenarios in a certain order? The OP felt comfortable enough to play the GC. Who are we to question him?

I don't mind being publicly told afterwards that I suck

If you suck, then a lot of us suck, because even though we might not be saying it, we are in exactly the same boat as you when it comes to losing so far.

I think that winning a minor victory on Minsk is not enough. You have to play it and play it and play it like I did. And lose a lot! Yes, that's the ticket. Lose a lot in Road to Minsk like I did.

Seriously, though, IN my opinion, you have to be able to beat RTM as a major victory because it is basically the 3 turns to start the GC in the middle. Minor victory translated to GC means you are already behind in the 1st 3 turns.

That is something I'd like an answer to. Just to be very clear: I understand that a pocket is only safe after the other side has made its move. It is a sensible design choice. What I am talking about is 50 units escaping a giant pocket through a two hex bottle-neck, completely ignoring ZOC restrictions. The pocket was fully surrounded in my turn, having at least one German unit in every hex and just not being able to close the two hexes on the very top. So: A string of German units, but an opening of two hexes. But there is no way I as a human played could have rescued even half of those units with ZOC and Soviet movement allowances in the Soviet player turn.

Yes, but 95% of people who will write in this thread will continue to say you suck at playing the game and ignore the issue that was presented.

I also would like to know a proper answer to a proper question instead of infinite circling around it.

If this happen and it is a bug, it should be pointed out very clearly instead of ignored.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: fsp

Here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW.

OK...

Can you post the savegame file here?


Also what exactly happened next (this is screenshoot of Turn #2)?


Did the Soviets escape during their turn via those 2 HEXes to the north?

Or did you attack the units in pocket you made on same turn you made the pocket and attacked Soviets excaped?


Loe "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: fsp

FYI, here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW. Again, looks like I stand corrected on most units, still not sure how ALL of them got out of there.

FSP pls toggle enemy hex overlay {e}.

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

No I'm not joking. Two of your posts came off as elitist and condescending. Quite frankly I saw nothing helpful in your posts thus my response to you. Honestly I haven't really tried to be helpful because I don't have enough of a grasp on the game to offer advice. My point was and still is that people assumed too much (not reading the manual, playing "Road to" scenarios) and that some people (such as yourself) come off as elitist experts.

Doesn't each of those units only have to move one space into the pocket to remove ZOC penalties? And if so, then there are only two hexes where ZoC becomes a problem...no? An yes - ontrol overlay will help [;)]

Impressive pocket mind you...I bet you wished you had closed it [;)]

FSP:

If you still have that save, could you please post it? I'd like to try to pick up where you left off and see if I could pull out a win. Probably won't but it will be a good learning experience.

For chrissake, if that pocket does count as "closed", what does? Unless they attacked and threw back at least one of those German units on each side of the gap, how did ANY of the Soviet units move out (I understand that they could have routed out...).

TMR

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

No I'm not joking. Two of your posts came off as elitist and condescending. Quite frankly I saw nothing helpful in your posts thus my response to you. Honestly I haven't really tried to be helpful because I don't have enough of a grasp on the game to offer advice. My point was and still is that people assumed too much (not reading the manual, playing "Road to" scenarios) and that some people (such as yourself) come off as elitist experts.

Yes - you are actually joking.

Unless we see the screen shot with control set on, we can't tell. The ss motorised brigade has a weaker ZOC than the SS division, so the hex next to the brigade may not have switched to Axis control.

It does seem most of those units should not be able to get out.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

For chrissake, if that pocket does count as "closed", what does? Unless they attacked and threw back at least one of those German units on each side of the gap, how did ANY of the Soviet units move out (I understand that they could have routed out...).
TMR

Would they be able to rout without being attacked? He said he didn't attack the turn he formed this pocket

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

The WitE is IGYG ("I Go - You Go") type of game where both sides play the same turn on same date! [;)]


Thus, what you see as, for example, German attacker as solid encirclement is not considered solid encirclement in game engine terms - this is because the other side has opportunity to do something about it - the only "true" encirclement is the encirclement that extends to two (2) or more turns!

Therefore if you really want to eliminate trapped enemy units in some pocked you should never encircle and attack in your single turn - you should encircle in your 1st turn and attack in your 2nd turn!

This is all explained in manual BTW... [8D]


Leo "Apollo11"

I am aware of this feature in IGYO (one of the reasons I liked WIR WeGo so much), but in any combat one side, or other, usually has the initiative and moves, whilst the other side reacts. If a unit has moved behind another unit and has attacked it from the rear, then the movement options for the defending unit should be limited. If encircled units are in a position to be attacked then they obviously didn't do anthing about being encircled. Therefore, the defending unit has spent most of it's potential move, whilst the attacking unit moved up, if there had been no attack it probably would not have moved. It is then strange to see encircled units being attacked on the first of encirclement bouncing out to freedom.

I don't see much problem in routed units' movement being limited by ZOC and positions of encircling units, they should not easily be able to bounce through enemy units and enemy ZOC. After all when it comes to a standard turn you cannot just leap units over enemy positions on the grounds that they are simply reacting to enemy movements.

I am not saying that routed units should never escape (bounce out), as obviously this happened in reality, but there should be odds applied, or MP penalty, depending on whether the encirclement is solid enemy units, or has a proportion of ZOC. If there is no clear path then certain odds/MP will apply, if there is a path, but through enemy ZOC, then easier odds/MP will apply.

The mass emptying of a pocket by all units should at least be subject to some traffic rules, I thought that there did not seem to be any restriction on how many units could pass through a hex in any one move. There should be some disruption factor if too many units try to pass through the same hex in the same move [:)]

ORIGINAL: fsp

FYI, here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW. Again, looks like I stand corrected on most units, still not sure how ALL of them got out of there.

I would have been disheartened to have pulled of move like that and see it fail, it is perhaps a bit ambitious, but there should have been some reward. A lot of Soviet units might have escaped, but you should be able to 'bag' a significant number. [:)]

"In response to the OP... If I had plopped down $80 for a monster game on the East Front and 3 days later figured out how to win with only 11 turns under my belt towards a 225 turn scenario, I would be screaming for my money back for being sold a game with such a cheesy AI."
 
No game for 80$ will ever be dosed with an AI that can beat a human who knows and uses the all the rules as well as the AI [:)]; once you know the rules than the rest is your brain against a set of inflexible alorithims. Trying to beat the AI without knowing the manual inside and out is like trying to win the battle of Stalingrad without proper recon and intelligence; you will be counterattacked on your weak flanks, enveloped, seiged and eventually surrender - just like the AI does to an unwary human.
 
BTW, it has taken me 2 weeks to do 11 moves - and I am at it 4 - 6 hours/day with manual open and making a cheat sheet which has goodies on it like how close I need to be on the defense and offense for reserves to commit, MPs for cross river attacks, deliberate attacks, etc...
 
Anyway, everyone's mileage will vary - when I bought this I understood that there would be a very steep learning curve and that the gates of Moscow would be very far off...
 
Enjoy the game [:)]

It all comes down to that contested hex near the motorized brigade, so you need to turn on hex control so we can all see if you actually closed the pocket or not. The Soviets have 2 divisions adjacent to the hex, so I doubt the pocket was closed given all you have there is a brigade.

And given the size of the pocket, most units would have enough movement to move out of there if the pocket wasn’t actually closed. What I mean by that is they don’t have to contend with ZOC penalties to their movement since they have a big area of non contested hexes they can move through inside the pocket.

I doubt anything warped out in some hidden AI cheat process. I just had a similar (but smaller) pocket near Pskov in my game. Again a single hex was all they had and I had a single regiment next to it, but most Soviet units managed to escape. Several did not get all the way out though, they ended up along the coast of Lake Pskov, so it’s obvious there was no warp move involved.

Jim

Edit: Although I understand your anger over seeing the hens flee the hen house right as you came through the door. It is actually a good… no, it’s a very good thing that the AI managed to evade you. Think about that, what other AI ever have you seen that can recognize and then react to a threat like that? It did exactly what any human player would do in the same situation.

If I may, let me summarize a bit.

The OP is understandably frustrated because after spending a lot of time on the campaign, he realized that he is losing, and in addition does not understand how his huge pocket suddenly turned up empty. This is what most people are referring to when they say it is better to learn with smaller scenarios - the time invested is much smaller so it is less frustrating to have to start all over again.This is why in my case I have not tackled the GC yet.

I think I understand the response about porous pockets on the first turn of encirclement, but doesn't this lead to gamey tactics? In other words, it is clearly better NOT to attack units in the pocket on the first turn because it is likely that they will rout out of the pocket. ("No Colonel, do NOT attack those Russians, because we don't want them to escape the pocket!"). Would it not be better to have a routine to take into account the porous nature of the pocket without encouraging gamey tactics?

OTOH there WERE cases in WW2 where porous pockets allowed huge numbers of enemy troops to escape, the best (or worse)example being the Falaise pocket where hundreds of thousands of Germans escaped without their equipment through he neck of the pocket before it was closed.

Many of use are waiting with bated breath to see the developers' response to the specific pocket of the OP, because even if the pocket were not completely closed, it is unlikely that such a large number of units could escape the pocket in a week without serious casualties.

Well at least many of us will appreciate this discussion if it brings about a better understanding of how pockets work, or the correction of a bug if there is one.

Henri

And just an additional thought: I thought I read somewhere that surrounded enemy units with low morale could just "evaporate" during the enemy turn. Could this be the case here?

Ted - don't bother sending me private messages - if you have something to say then say it. And please don't kid yourself that you sent me a PM because you didn't want to start a flame war (which you so did by the way!) - you didn't post here because you know verbally attacking another forum member, regardless of what you think of them, is against forum rules. And you most certainly wanted your little virtual attack - bully for you m8.

I didn't say he couldn't play the Grand Campaign - I was suggesting that starting the Grand Campaign up so early and then getting disheartened by your feeble attempts might not be the best course. I didn't word it like that - I asked how he could know the rules so well to start a Grand Campaign and expect to do well...

Now...in response to this juvenile tirade...

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
What are you? Some kind of wise ass? You admit to not completely understanding the game and yet you're trying to give advice. Only thing is you didn't give any advice. You made fun of the guy because he only played 11 turns of the GC and decided his game was lost. You and others assumed he hadn't read the manual or played any other scenarios. Tell me something, where does it say you can't start out with the GC? Just because you or I have grasped the game yet doesn't mean he hasn't. Your posts were elitist and condescending. One other thing. I don't know what the smartass "Dad" thing was but it was stupid and brought absolutely nothing to your post to me.

I took this private because I don't want to start a flame war that will get the thread locked. You my friend are an idiot. And no I was not joking. Did it sound like I was joking from my post? Guess you can read minds now too. So read my mind. I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with my ass and you kissing it. No need to respond. We're done here.

No - I'm not a "wise ass" - funny sometimes, not so others. I can be emotional, happy and angry. I'm a father to two beautiful teenage girls and husband to a beautiful wife. I have a car but I cycle to work everyday and I have my own home. I lead a life pretty much like most civilised humans.

I didn't know that not fully understanding the game yet exempted me from giving advice? Is knowing the game inside out a pre-requisite for giving advice? If it is, I most certainly do apologise. I offered what little help I could. I read someone going to stop playing and (whilst having a crack at his expense) then offered what little help I could. Whilst I had a tongue in cheek dab at the OP - I was helpful after (that is ABSOLUTELY regardless of whether you thought it was helpful or not) - I offered what little help I could to save him wasting his money - you jumped right in and attacked several people here and then specifically targeted me for your deranged outburst.

Myself and others assumed he hadn't read the manual or played the Road To scenarios because he didn't say in his post he had done so. I have no investment in whether he plays the game he paid for or not. I wish I hadn't bloody posted now, presumably as do you - unless of course you were chomping at the bit anyway

If you think my posts are condescending and elitist, then that is your opinion and you are absolutely entitled to it. I'm sure others on this forum and others may actually join you. But I have never and will never be elitist and whilst I might have a jab at people from time to time, it's just because I'm human...red rag - bull and all that (sorry - is that making a smart ass comment again?) I'm most definitely not apologising to you for who I am. If you don't like who I am or how I post then green button me and your life will be ever more peaceful (except when people quote what I say - but I can't really be held responsible for that)

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


Edit: Although I understand your anger over seeing the hens flee the hen house right as you came through the door. It is actually a good… no, it’s a very good thing that the AI managed to evade you. Think about that, what other AI ever have you seen that can recognize and then react to a threat like that? It did exactly what any human player would do in the same situation.

If the AI did not cheat, and I now think it probably did not, it is indeed a very good thing. However, how did it get the units with just 1 MP out of there? Also, even if the AI did not cheat, is it realistic to get ALL of those units out of such an almost encirclement without even any loss?

I have to admit that a lot of my "not wanting to play anymore" had to do with the feeling of having been cheated out of this. If that's not the case, I am a bit more comfortable.

Many of use are waiting with bated breath to see the developers' response to the specific pocket of the OP, because even if the pocket were not completely closed, it is unlikely that such a large number of units could escape the pocket in a week without serious casualties.

Exactly. Honestly, I did expect some units to escape. When I formed this pocket, first I was thinking "OK, this is my Kiev." Later, as the neck was left open: "Ok, this is my Falaise. I will at least have lots of stuff and equipment destroyed by the Luftwaffe". Neither of that happened.

Still very much liking the game though. It has huge potential.