Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mobius



That game was so hyped. I bought one of the first 500 signed copies the cover wasn't even in color and played it maybe 6 times. There were so many die rolls and so many hits that disappeared into the ether of space. There just was not even a location listed for them.

IMO, it represented something of a turning-point in game design, perhaps a wrong-turn. On the one hand, it was far more detailed than other battlefield games of the time, such as PanzerBlitz. The rules were easy enough to digest, and while somewhat lengthy, not terribly complex.

I suspect that the real problem with Tobruk was that it really wasn't a boardgame at all. In fact, you could take the exact same rules to a nice, flat felt-map and go to town with some GHQ Microarmor. It was just that simple. As Mobius states, there was a monstrous amount of die-rolling involved. But, what decent miniatures games ends before 3AM, anyhow?

At the time, it seemed as though decades passed before Squad Leader appeared. When it did, the older title simply evaporated. People wanted to play a game, not a simulation or miniatures-game on a board. And thus it would remain, until Combat Mission appeared and resolved the combat resolution issue via a CPU (rather than dice and tables).

I still play a form of Tobruk, BTW, that's published by Critical Hit publications. The publisher also has a line of ASL products for anyone who's interested:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3992/advanced-tobruk

Advanced Tobruk is a lot more like ASL, than it's progenitor, which is to say that's it's far less like Tobruk than is Combat Mission.[;)]

ORIGINAL: WilliePete

Its almost February. Please tell me release is imminent.

I hope so. I'm done with my work (as of today finished a new T-34/85) and now am waiting too.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Advanced Tobruk is a lot more like ASL, than it's progenitor, which is to say that's it's far less like Tobruk than is Combat Mission.[;)]

So you have that game. Not wanting to get too off topic but I always wondered how it compares to the old Tobruk and SL?

ORIGINAL: diablo1

So you will do that for us Mad Russian..Yes?! Just a Guadacanal scenario will be fine. [&o]

There is currently discussion about the places and time frames that PC COULD go. The Pacific is one of the areas being discussed.

In reality PC has very much been put together as a construction kit. Like the rest, it should do well, once we get the framework together to apply the units and time frames you guys want to see. Like all construction kits, once the basic game is out, the gamers themselves will take the series to where it goes. Different mods, different time periods, different wars. The end result will be totally up to YOU!

I will say this, not just the Pacific in WWII is being looked at for jungle type situations. Another big war in that area that comes to mind is Vietnam.

ORIGINAL: WilliePete

Its almost February. Please tell me release is imminent.

In the same discussions about where PC is going is the constant recurrence of the word "release". All projects reach a point when they are ready to see the light of day. There are no major issues left in the development of the upgrade. Now all that remains is to tie it all together. When Matrix thinks it's good enough is when you get it.

The work has been done. Everybody is in their best suite and tie and getting their pictures taken for the brochures. You did surprise me with the fact that it's almost February. Gee, how time flies when you're having fun.....or working day and night to finish up.....just depends on your perspective. The hardest thing to do is to just WAIT! Hopefully, that's about over.

Good Hunting.

MR

The final update has now been submitted.

Hopefully if no bug fixes are required we will get the demo out to you in the next week or so and then the final game a week or two after that (depending on the feedback from the demo).

Keep the faith, we are very close.

Thanks

S.

Great!
I was starting to wonder if it was a case of "A Feature To Far". Looking forward to the demo.

The timeline above may be optimistic, but have a build that may be the final one, depending on testing.

Regards,

- Erik

We will beat Duke Nukem Forever!

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
IMO, it represented something of a turning-point in game design, perhaps a wrong-turn. On the one hand, it was far more detailed than other battlefield games of the time, such as PanzerBlitz. The rules were easy enough to digest, and while somewhat lengthy, not terribly complex.

I suspect that the real problem with Tobruk was that it really wasn't a boardgame at all. In fact, you could take the exact same rules to a nice, flat felt-map and go to town with some GHQ Microarmor. It was just that simple. As Mobius states, there was a monstrous amount of die-rolling involved. But, what decent miniatures games ends before 3AM, anyhow?

At the time, it seemed as though decades passed before Squad Leader appeared. When it did, the older title simply evaporated. People wanted to play a game, not a simulation or miniatures-game on a board. And thus it would remain, until Combat Mission appeared and resolved the combat resolution issue via a CPU (rather than dice and tables).

I still play a form of Tobruk, BTW, that's published by Critical Hit publications. The publisher also has a line of ASL products for anyone who's interested:

This is a very great post and reflects how I see it too. CM to me was the 2nd coming of ASL. I remember burning tons of midnight oil playing CMBO and CMBB[:D]

I still have my WWII and Modern (80's) Microarmor down in the basement. One of my favorites was done by a local gamer call "Follow Me" about WWII combat. I knew the guy who did it and it was his shop that got me into board gaming[&o]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

So you have that game. Not wanting to get too off topic but I always wondered how it compares to the old Tobruk and SL?

Here's a link to the designer's notes that addresses some of the philosophy behind correcting perceived weaknesses in the "old Tobruk:"

http://www.criticalhit.com/Tobruk5.html

As Ray Tapio suggests in the introduction, you may want to skip down to the section denoted as "The New Edition." To my mind, the most basic difference is the great lengths to which he went in an effort to simplify direct-fire combat. For example, most closed-turreted, gunned-AFV, a Pz.III.H perhaps, have a rate of fire of only "1" or "2" (for acquired targets) per ninety second turn. Compare that to the original game where a Bofors 40mm had a ROF of "17" or "35" (for acquired targets) per thirty second turn, and the reduction in dice-rolling is, shall we say, dramatic. While the AFV mechanics have been streamlined, infantry and artillery have been greatly fleshed-out. As a result, the rulebook has been expanded to 48 pages. The rules are currently on version 3.09.

Squad Leader...

Well, if you set Advanced Tobruk up and invite some friends over, they'll likely think that you've been playing ASL on some unfamiliar maps.

Do you remember playing the first four scenarios of Squad Leader? Man, those things were fun! And it was obvious that someone had paid great attention to the sequence of play, as it was exquisite. However, as I played the later scenarios, it seemed obvious that the same wasn't true of the rest of game, the armor for example seemed far less well thought out. What I took away from the experience was that the game really appeared to have been built around the strength of those early scenarios, ones that focused on infantry play. I purchased and played Cross of Iron and Crescendo of Doom, but never recaptured the magic of those early experiences. I've never played a turn of ASL.

As to Advanced Tobruk, my perception is that the exact opposite process took place. The designer sought to fix that which was essentially joyless and unplayable (at least until CM) in the medium for which it was constructed, boardgaming. IMO, they've done an admirable job in most, if not all, regards. However, the infantry isn't as smoothly integrated into AT as SL, it feels kinda shoe-horned into the former, sorta like armour into the latter. I picked up the game because of my fetish for the North African campaign. Apart from the core ATS game, Tobruk, there are seven modules with tons of scenarios, counters and map overlays that are all devoted to North Africa. For me, it was simply a must have.

ORIGINAL: Richie61

I still have my WWII and Modern (80's) Microarmor down in the basement. One of my favorites was done by a local gamer call "Follow Me" about WWII combat. I knew the guy who did it and it was his shop that got me into board gaming[&o]

Was "Follow Me!" ever published or was it just a local presentation?

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Richie61

I still have my WWII and Modern (80's) Microarmor down in the basement. One of my favorites was done by a local gamer call "Follow Me" about WWII combat. I knew the guy who did it and it was his shop that got me into board gaming[&o]

Was "Follow Me!" ever published or was it just a local presentation?

Good Hunting.

MR

I bought my copy at the Toy Soldier in Bath, ME. Peter was the owner and designed it. The picture is the only one I can find on the net. I am thinking it was a local only, but Peter went to war game show and sold it.
It was very detailed. I can't find my copy[&:]

Found this too:

Yes, I also paid $5.00 for the rules in 1980 or so and it was a lot for a kid[:'(]

Title: Follow Me!: World War II Man to Man Combat
Item Code: n/a
Type: Wargame rules
Copyright: 1979 by Peter L. Rice
Author(s): Peter L. Rice
Artwork: n/a
Cartography: n/a
Place of Publication: Bath, Maine, United States
Printer: n/a
Format: 35 page loose-leaf, plus front and rear covers, stapled
ISBN: n/a
Cover Price: n/a
Mass: 114g
Dimensions: length 30.3cm, width 22.8cm, thickness .3cm

ORIGINAL: Richie61

Found this too:

Yes, I also paid $5.00 for the rules in 1980 or so and it was a lot for a kid[:'(]

So, how'd they play?[&:]

ORIGINAL: Richie61
I still have my WWII and Modern (80's) Microarmor down in the basement. One of my favorites was done by a local gamer call "Follow Me" about WWII combat. I knew the guy who did it and it was his shop that got me into board gaming[&o]

Do you think he could of gotten the type any smaller?[:D]

[



I've never played them. But it looks like you needed a calculator to play.

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

We will beat Duke Nukem Forever!

LMAO every game beats Duke Nukem Forever!

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: Richie61

Found this too:

Yes, I also paid $5.00 for the rules in 1980 or so and it was a lot for a kid[:'(]

So, how'd they play?[&:]

Been 25 years since I played it, but you had dice up the butt. You would follow though pages of charts based on what, where and who you were.

Example:
Winter weather
Shooting a BAR from a foxhole while standing up - range to target - at a German squad in the open while standing up.
You rolled a die to looked it up on the chart. You could get a head shot, leg, abdomen etc hits. Tanks could factor in running fast across a frozen field and thus suffer broken tracks etc.

It was a very cool game! Lots of details. It was like ASL, but lots more detail. CM was a lot like it, which was why I loved CMBO when it came out[&o]

One of my friends from school also had it and about 5 years ago he still had the rules. I am going to try to locate him again and see if I can buy or get the rule book. I still have all my dice and figures in the basement[:D]

ORIGINAL: diablo1

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

We will beat Duke Nukem Forever!

LMAO every game beats Duke Nukem Forever!

We now have a deadline

tm.asp?m=2697646

howdy,

so i expressed interest in the tin soldiers series hoping to get my minis gaming fix in future iterations of these games but alas, it turns out it wasn't to be.

but someone recommended this series, especially since it's being developed by former table top guys so i figured i would indeed give ostfront a shake. sooooo.... when?!?! : )

anyway, i've enjoyed combat mission (have all 3 of the 1x engine games) but i'm kinda hoping that PCO will be able to do something that CM kinda failed to do - provide scenarios that feel satisfying without having dozens of units. CM has small missions but they feel tiny and basically are reserved as infantry skirmishes and tutorials.

for me, this is the appeal of minis - the ability to have a manageable number of units so that i can form a coherent tactical picture and not having it devolve into just throwing handfuls of units at each other.

i know there are a lot of gamers that appreciate mass and scale and huge numbers of units duking it out. and that's totally cool. alas, my tiny brain doesn't operate well with those kinda numbers.

so can anyone answer whether they think ostfront will be able to satisfy my particular gaming itch?

thanks much and i've got cash burnin' a hole in my pocket so hurry!

We are working on getting a demo out as fast as we can. Then you can see for free if it suits you.

You might also look at Slitherine/Matrix BBC Battlefield Academy. It is IGOUGO turn based which is more like minis to me. It is geared toward smaller battles as well.