Matrix Games Forums

"This forum, along with some posters makes me sick anyway"
you've got a weak stomach then.
what should make you sick is what the people you idolize did to millions of innocent Jews. Go back to your hitler shrine and don't bother our presence again.

As an avid scenario paintball player, we've had a few "issues" with mil-sim teams that take the WWII representations to the extreme (including a very rapid group that represents the 1st SS LAH in all its "glory." There have been multiple discussions on whether or not this is appropriate (especially their using all of the various SS runes & swastikas as well) - but they've not backed down.

Also, at an event a couple of years ago, not to far from my home, there was a WWII-related game where the German commander arrived in full SS regalia (including ceremonial dagger) and numerous Nazi flags. I got the distinct impression that this may not have been part of "historical" accuracy, as much as stuff he might have had left over from the last skinhead rally - very scary guy.

Given the connotations - I wouldn't encourage anyone to display that kind stuff, and given the laws in some countries Matrix is marketing itself, the decision is really a no brainer. If you want to mod, go right ahead - but until someone passes a law that the Soviet emblems are outlawed, don't expect them to be removed from games - unlike the Nazi symbols.

Maybe there should be a sticky about it?

Here's the sticky at Paradox:

Rules
Well it took less than half a day here are the rules you must follow

NOTE: There will not be any gulags or deathcamps (including POW camps) to build in Hearts of Iron3, nor will there be the ability to simulate the Holocaust or systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game. Thank You. Threads bringing up will be closed without discussion.

NOTE: Strategic bombing in HoI3 will be abstracted and not allow you to terror bomb civilians specifically. Chemical weapons will also not be included in the game. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed without discussion.

NOTE: There will not be any swastikas in the game, because it IS illegal to show them in Germany and various other countries. Same goes for other Nazi symbols (e.g. related to the SS) or Nazi propaganda material, including songs etc. Any links posted to a mod which includes a Swastika or other illegal Nazi symbols will be deleted. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed.

The swastika used by the Finns is certainly not the same as the one used by the Nazis. Different orientation and different direction.

While I'm sure that the French would have legitimate issues with any version of the Iron Cross considering it marched through their capital on several occasions, it is not generally recognized as a symbol of the Nazis as much as a symbol of the the German army...Prussian to be exact.

Making a strained analogy from our history here in the US, the Confederate national flag does not have the same onerous connotations as the Confederate battle flag. This is simply because the latter was confiscated and demeaned by the racist groups that sprung up after our civil war.

It boils down to symbols become reflections of those who grasp them, and the Nazi swastika and the Confederate battle flag have been grasped by totally despicable groups. They should be rightfully shunned by all with a modicum of decency about them.

ORIGINAL: BASB

At the end of the day why deny history, it is almost 70 years in our past, but it happened. America doesn't ban CSA regalia, Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion. The star and sickle, countless atrocities performed under that banner, the same can said about many other symbols of countries like India, Britain, China, Japan, Ireland etc etc etc. If these particular symbols are drawn and deface people property that's is the illegal act not the symbol. In the western so called democratic world it time governments get into the 21 st century and not linger on the past. This is not a political comment purely someone who likes total immersion in the war games I play. White stars on US trucks Italian symbols on Italian trucks the rising sun symbol on Japanese aeroplanes roundels on Australian aeroplanes red stars on Russian tanks and German symbols on German tanks. Some governments move into the 21st century. I the words of Forrest Gump, "that all I have to say about."

I am along this line.

To Aurelian : Though I don't like part of Pradox view on the subject (chemical and terror bombing especially), we are at a point we are discussing the German law and not Matrix decision as I think we are all grown up and pretty aware of the commercial reason.

This debate is meaningfull only relate to the law by itself. I don't think that Matrix made the game political by removing the Swastika and leaving in the Hammer and sickle. This is just one of the bad consequence of this Law.

I think Paulus example is good to make the distinction between correct representation of history and somewhat being proud of representing the ideology of the side palyed (I had issue with player not wanting to play the Soviet because the were "Evil").

As the kind of thing are always subjective. We should stick to the "why deny history" point and try to petition the German government to consider historical game as work on history and left the bon on using swastika for german flag and counter (after all we us the SS symbol on counter with no problem).

ORIGINAL: micha1100
Rasputitsa, please don't misunderstand me, I'm absolutely not saying that Germany should be proud about the France campaign. But I do believe that what happened in France 1940 is no reason to ban Wehrmacht symbols. When I spoke of "honourable" I only meant that in comparison to all the other things that happened in the war and under Hitler's reign.

I understand the sensitivity of this subject and the need to choose words carefully, which is what prompted my post.

My personal view is that symbols and words hurt nobody, it is people who do the damage. The Soviet symbols are in the same category, as much misery and pain was committed under these banners. However, I live in a country where we have the right to choose and for historical reasons I have applied the patch to correct the symbology in WiTE. I would defend the right of anyone to have the same choice and it is only through an understanding of history that the facts surrounding these symbols can be clearly understood. Which is why any attempt to re-write history needs to be challenged, I am sorry if I misunderstood your motives. [:)]

Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion

There is no controversy surrounding the Southern Cross flag in Australia- maybe in time it will be our national flag if we become a Republic (which is another issue).
I do take issue with it being compared to the Confederate flag though- deep issue.

But that is another discussion.

As for the Swastika and Hammer Sickle- their both offensive to various people.
To us it is a game, something the Mods can sort out...
To others these symbols bare more ill will and terror than most of us can imagine.

This topic is old and tired and these symbols belong to another age- one we should never forget, lest it is repeated.
 

ORIGINAL: molchomor
Regarding the "honorable" invasion of France and all that (is there something as an honorable war? Really?).

One would think that the Nazis got slammed hard for the previous attacks but in fact the attack on France is what actually did them in at Nuremberg (oh the irony!).

More fun facts freely from memory (I'm sure someone will check this anyway) :

Invasion of Czeckoslovakia: Nope, could not blame Germany here as Poland got a bit greedy too and took some territory when the chance presented itself.

Invasion of Poland: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the Soviets invaded Poland also and grabbed a huge chunk of it.

Invasion of Scandics: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the English invasion fleet bound for Norway actually set sail a couple of days before Germany launched its offensive.

Invasion of Lowlands etc. : Nope, could not blame Germany here as the French executed their plan and fell into these countries ASAP when Germany started pushing for France.

Invasion of France: Yep, clear case of aggression -> Conviction at Nuremberg. [X(]

The indictment had to avoid implicating the Soviet Union, which bears an equal responsibility for the start of WW2, unfortunately having the most divisions counts.

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.

Here's one marching standard for PB 27 that Commie's didn't burn in 1945, enjoy!

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.

And the backside of same!

ORIGINAL: chris0827

I wonder if he'll ever realize that he spelled Horst Wessel wrong.

I lol'd