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RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:19 am
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Encircled
Two things that I've noticed in both my games so far (apologies to both my opponents for my slow play btw!) is that checkerboarding results in a minimum of three million Russian casulties (which I think means the game is balanced according to folk on here). It does work though
The second thing is that HQ build up can cause you massive problems if used correctly, and then is despite checkerboarding
Two things that I've noticed in both my games so far (apologies to both my opponents for my slow play btw!) is that checkerboarding results in a minimum of three million Russian casulties (which I think means the game is balanced according to folk on here). It does work though
The second thing is that HQ build up can cause you massive problems if used correctly, and then is despite checkerboarding
Agree with both of these points, although I guess you could reduce casualties to some degree if your checkerboard is moving backwards.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:19 am
by Encircled
Your checkerboard should always be moving backwards, but the downside of the checkerboard is that the spaces can be infiltrated by German units, so you are going to get units encircled every turn.
The more aggressive you are (and I'm very aggressive with the Soviets), then the more units that are encircled, but the alternative is just running, and thats is a) boring as hell and b) its impossible to evacuate most of your industry.
The problem I'm having is getting the balance about right between fighting and retreating, and when to break open pockets, and when not to even try
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 11:02 am
by Arstavidios
That's the problem with the soviets.
You have to slow down the german to evacuate your industry, but you cannot afford to lose too many units otherwise it's going to hurt you more than losing some industry.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 11:57 am
by TulliusDetritus
ORIGINAL: randallw
If you leave panzers alone, eventually they'll come to you...so it's really more like "face the panzers now" or let them come to you.
Sure they will... surounding 20, 30 or 40 divisions... Given that they were unmolested and therefore free to maneuver. This we see almost every day in the AARs... This reasoning is very dangerous, in my opinion. They are lethal = I stay away... But that's what will make them truly dangerous in the end [:)]
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:05 pm
by TulliusDetritus
On the WitP forum the Sir Robin was very discussed since the game was released [;)] 2004, 2005, 2006, 2009... the issue was still discussed. The thing is in the worst case the Japanese would have never ended in Washington DC. India, ok, New Zealand and northern part of Australia ok... But continental USA... KEEP DREAMING! Here on the other hand... Moscow, Leningrad, vital targets that the Soviets would have NEVER given to Germans for free.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 1:20 am
by randallw
How easy would it be for an Axis player ( against a human ) to encircle about 40 divisions, other than on the opening turn? Are there enough MPs in German mobile divisions to punch through a defensive line and create an encirclement in just one turn, for a massive area? My instinct is that it would take multiple turns, which the Soviet player should notice and get some units out.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:08 am
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: randallw
How easy would it be for an Axis player ( against a human ) to encircle about 40 divisions, other than on the opening turn? Are there enough MPs in German mobile divisions to punch through a defensive line and create an encirclement in just one turn, for a massive area? My instinct is that it would take multiple turns, which the Soviet player should notice and get some units out.
You must be a much better player than me (I'm not being sarcastic), because I think it is very easy for the Germans to create large pockets if they know what they are doing, and if the Sov player is not VERY careful about his dispositions. In my experience, and I think other's as well, if they plan properly, a German can definitely break through a line and do an encirclement in one turn, or at least cut the rail lines to make a full evac impossible.
This is not always possible, however, and if it is not, then good German player wait a bit for an opportunity to present itself. In my view, they need to be ready to take advantage of opportunities which present themselves rather than getting fixated on some particular plan.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:16 am
by Manstein63
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: randallw
How easy would it be for an Axis player ( against a human ) to encircle about 40 divisions, other than on the opening turn? Are there enough MPs in German mobile divisions to punch through a defensive line and create an encirclement in just one turn, for a massive area? My instinct is that it would take multiple turns, which the Soviet player should notice and get some units out.
You must be a much better player than me (I'm not being sarcastic), because I think it is very easy for the Germans to create large pockets if they know what they are doing, and if the Sov player is not VERY careful about his dispositions. In my experience, and I think other's as well, if they plan properly, a German can definitely break through a line and do an encirclement in one turn, or at least cut the rail lines to make a full evac impossible.
This is not always possible, however, and if it is not, then good German player wait a bit for an opportunity to present itself. In my view, they need to be ready to take advantage of opportunities which present themselves rather than getting fixated on some particular plan.
I agree with 76mm as I always start every turn with a plan as to what I will try to acheive but as soon as I start to move the units around other options will sometimes appear. You should try a flexible defense using all availible stratergies be it checkerboard, or as I prefer to call it manipular formation, sucessive defense lines or a combination. There are others I am sure, you just need to find what works for you. However remember this very important point. Just because it worked in a game aginst one opponent it doesn't mean that the same result can be achieved against everyone.
Manstein63
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:41 pm
by Encircled
I'm assuming that I'm not the only one who does an spreadsheet highlighting where all the German Panzer and Motorised units are (well, all the ones that I can see)?
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:57 am
by squatter
"How easy would it be for an Axis player ( against a human ) to encircle about 40 divisions, other than on the opening turn? Are there enough MPs in German mobile divisions to punch through a defensive line and create an encirclement in just one turn, for a massive area? My instinct is that it would take multiple turns, which the Soviet player should notice and get some units out."
If you are playing against someone dogmatically using Tullius' strategy, you'll find plenty of opportunities to trap his concentrated forces.
If the German player uses HQ buildup and the soviet player concentrates on the German armour at the same time, it is like candy from a baby.
I'm afraid that Tullius, for all his good intentions, simply hasnt witnessed what is possible for the Axis in the hands of a skilled player.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:49 pm
by gids
Tbh i played tulius strategy 2 times now and 2 times i won a good amount of time which helped me saving industry and building a bit of defenses ,ofcourse its all about timing aswell,if you use the soft factor button and you see the panzers are like all fuelled up ,just put the soviet units appart from each other with a bigger distance,fact is his strategy did help me
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:36 pm
by TulliusDetritus
ORIGINAL: squatter
If you are playing against someone dogmatically using Tullius' strategy, you'll find plenty of opportunities to trap his concentrated forces.
Keep dreaming! [:D]
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:56 pm
by sillyflower
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Sillyflower, the problem is you don't have a lot of options... You only have two in fact:
a) either you face the panzers
or
b) either you leave them alone
I'm saying you better do a)... Now feel free to do b)...
Well, since my last post I tried the 'hug a panzer' tactic on T5 as they all seemed to be red for fuel. Mega disaster! 1st time I've had big pocket against me. Credit to my opponent who seems to be using HQ build up skillfully and very frequently before it goes out of fashion in new patch.
I should have run away more and counter-attacked later. Now trying that but with rather fewer troops left. He's lost 1150 AFVs in 7 turns now but not many in combat. Waiting to see how he does in T8 as I surrounded quite a few again T7. ??? he's doing 9 but server game so I can't tell.
All in all a bit of a crazy looking game. He took Tula in T7 but my troops that got stuck in pripiet back in supply.
The answer to your qu is how do you do (a) and the timing. Patience is sometimes a virtue and sometimes (b) must come 1st.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:27 pm
by Ketza
ORIGINAL: sillyflower
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Sillyflower, the problem is you don't have a lot of options... You only have two in fact:
a) either you face the panzers
or
b) either you leave them alone
I'm saying you better do a)... Now feel free to do b)...
Well, since my last post I tried the 'hug a panzer' tactic on T5 as they all seemed to be red for fuel. Mega disaster! 1st time I've had big pocket against me. Credit to my opponent who seems to be using HQ build up skillfully and very frequently before it goes out of fashion in new patch.
I should have run away more and counter-attacked later. Now trying that but with rather fewer troops left. He's lost 1150 AFVs in 7 turns now but not many in combat. Waiting to see how he does in T8 as I surrounded quite a few again T7. ??? he's doing 9 but server game so I can't tell.
All in all a bit of a crazy looking game. He took Tula in T7 but my troops that got stuck in pripiet back in supply.
The answer to your qu is how do you do (a) and the timing. Patience is sometimes a virtue and sometimes (b) must come 1st.
What is happening with new patch in relation to HQ build up?
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:35 pm
by JAMiAM
ORIGINAL: Ketza
ORIGINAL: sillyflower
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Sillyflower, the problem is you don't have a lot of options... You only have two in fact:
a) either you face the panzers
or
b) either you leave them alone
I'm saying you better do a)... Now feel free to do b)...
Well, since my last post I tried the 'hug a panzer' tactic on T5 as they all seemed to be red for fuel. Mega disaster! 1st time I've had big pocket against me. Credit to my opponent who seems to be using HQ build up skillfully and very frequently before it goes out of fashion in new patch.
I should have run away more and counter-attacked later. Now trying that but with rather fewer troops left. He's lost 1150 AFVs in 7 turns now but not many in combat. Waiting to see how he does in T8 as I surrounded quite a few again T7. ??? he's doing 9 but server game so I can't tell.
All in all a bit of a crazy looking game. He took Tula in T7 but my troops that got stuck in pripiet back in supply.
The answer to your qu is how do you do (a) and the timing. Patience is sometimes a virtue and sometimes (b) must come 1st.
What is happening with new patch in relation to HQ build up?
It's getting neutered pretty stiffly...[:(]
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:41 pm
by Klydon
@Ketza
I can't find the thread, but Joel posted about some changes coming. There will be range restrictions on how far the HQ is from the rail head (like 25 MPs I think) and also it will cost more and is based on how many divisions are in the corps. (I think he quoted something like 17 AP's for a 3 division corps).
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:47 pm
by TulliusDetritus
ORIGINAL: sillyflower
Well, since my last post I tried the 'hug a panzer' tactic on T5 as they all seemed to be red for fuel. Mega disaster! 1st time I've had big pocket against me. Credit to my opponent who seems to be using HQ build up skillfully and very frequently before it goes out of fashion in new patch.
The answer to your qu is how do you do (a) and the timing. Patience is sometimes a virtue and sometimes (b) must come 1st.
LOLOLOL, sorry to hear that [:)] I'm sorry if it was my fault! [8D]
I don't know how to explain it, Silly Flower. Yes, I am indeed agressive. But I am still VERY prudent. It's not only about hugging the mighty panzers. I also rely on depth when I do that. Just in case something might go wrong. And for sure, if I think the situation is threatening, I will withdraw 2, 3 or 4 hexes en masse if needed. But I will stay in the vicinity of the panzers. Always. If you're patient the opportunity might appear. Because nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes. The German players too [:)]
Best luck next time. Well, in case you want to try that again.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:52 pm
by JAMiAM
ORIGINAL: Klydon
@Ketza
I can't find the thread, but Joel posted about some changes coming. There will be range restrictions on how far the HQ is from the rail head (like 25 MPs I think) and also it will cost more and is based on how many divisions are in the corps. (I think he quoted something like 17 AP's for a 3 division corps).
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
6) Rule Change (section 20.6) - HQ supply buildups are not allowed for HQ's that are more than 20 MPs from their railhead at the moment the HQ buildup is ordered. In addition, the AP cost of an HQ buildup is now increased by the distance in MPs of the HQ from a railhead divided by 3 (truncated). So for an HQ with 3 attached divisions that is 16 MPs from a supply source, the AP cost would be 5+2+2+2+(16/3) =16 (used to be just 11). This increased AP cost is used to calculate the other buildup penalties described in section 20.6.3 in the manual.
This will effectively kill the turn 3 HQ Buildups that generally occur for Axis players at the Velkaya River, and near the Vitebsk-Orsha landbridge area. In fact, you probably won't be able to do one until turn 4 at the earliest at Velkaya, and maybe by turn 5 at the landbridge.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:22 pm
by Ketza
Im not clear as to why a change needs to made with HQ build up. It seems to work fine as it is and Axis penetrations arent any greater then what they were in the actual campaign using it.
RE: Soviets, do stop the German Panzers! My tips :)
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:27 pm
by JAMiAM
ORIGINAL: Ketza
Im not clear as to why a change needs to made with HQ build up. It seems to work fine as it is and Axis penetrations arent any greater then what they were in the actual campaign using it.
I didn't think a change was needed, either.