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ORIGINAL: DanNC

Alan's book and WPO/AE simulations really make me question the mind set of the Japanese leadership.  They were nuts.  [:D]  It seems like their whole strategy was based on the idea that they would win The Big Battle and the US would sign a peace treaty.  What a gamble to make and then loose. 

Later,
Dan

Welcome to the "unreal world" of Japanese Strategic Planning. Just like much of their tactical planning, it depended far too much in the other side doing exactly what the Japanese wished them to do....

Just got the book in the mail today and will start it tomorrow.

Zimm spends quite a bit of time documenting problems in Fuchida's(the leader of the attack on the Pearl Harbor) statements and reports through out the war.  One interesting quote was from the Battle of Midway.

On page 259, there is a quote from Fuchida stating that the IJN was about to launch a counter strike against the USN.  The IJN flight decks were full of planes about to launch and they only needed five minutes to clear the decks.  Unfortunately for the IJN, the USN dive bombers appeared and the rest is history.  Except this is not history since this did not occur.

The interesting quote is, "...The Air Officer flapped his white flag, and the first Zero fighter gathered speed and whizzed off the deck.  At that instant a lookout screamed: 'Hell-divers!"

Except that the US dive bombers at Midway were Dauntlesses, not Helldivers.  Unless the Dauntless was called a Helldiver by the Japanese I think we have more evidence that the quote is another Fuchidaism.

Later,
Dan

ORIGINAL: DrADZ
I wanted to find out if upgrading to the WITP Admiral’s Edition would be worthwhile before wading into the manual. Advice solicited.

Definitely worth the entry price to upgrade. Huge step forward. Couple of interesting mods lying about too for the grognard with far too much time on his hands but a keener appreciation of some aspects of wargames.

Think you may just have stumbled upon an audience who'd thoroughly enjoy a firehosing. I'm going to sit on the sidelines and dip my toes in the water as I always do for this particular theatre although will certainly be counting pennies come month's end for some discretionary spending.

Except that the US dive bombers at Midway were Dauntlesses, not Helldivers. Unless the Dauntless was called a Helldiver by the Japanese I think we have more evidence that the quote is another Fuchidaism.

I'm no fan of Fuchida. It seems that there is plenty of evidence that his nose was getting longer and longer throughout his life. But, I believe that "Helldivers" was a generic term for dive bombers current around that time. IIRC the SB2C was nicknamed Helldiver by the manufacturer (Grumman?). I think there was a Hollywood movie about dive bombers (sorta) from the late 30's/1940 or so called "Helldivers" (starring Errol Flynn). So I'll give that one to Fuchida. But at the same time the air group records from the Kido Butai are unanimous in showing that the Japanese airstrike he refers to at that time was below on the hangardecks, not ready to launch.

ORIGINAL: spence

Except that the US dive bombers at Midway were Dauntlesses, not Helldivers. Unless the Dauntless was called a Helldiver by the Japanese I think we have more evidence that the quote is another Fuchidaism.

I'm no fan of Fuchida. It seems that there is plenty of evidence that his nose was getting longer and longer throughout his life. But, I believe that "Helldivers" was a generic term for dive bombers current around that time. IIRC the SB2C was nicknamed Helldiver by the manufacturer (Grumman?). I think there was a Hollywood movie about dive bombers (sorta) from the late 30's/1940 or so called "Helldivers" (starring Errol Flynn). So I'll give that one to Fuchida. But at the same time the air group records from the Kido Butai are unanimous in showing that the Japanese airstrike he refers to at that time was below on the hangardecks, not ready to launch.

I remember the Helldiver movie. But I saw it rerun on TV not in the theater. [:D] I just want to make that point perfectly clear. [:)] But a US movie, with a Aussie American star, is pretty slim evidence that the word Helldiver was used by the Japanese.

If my memory is working correctly the US Helldiver's, which replaced the Dauntless, did not see combat until 1943. There were quite a few problems with the Helldiver in development and it was not liked by pilots at least initially.

Given that crews were supposed to recognize friendly and enemy planes, they should have known the correct name of the plane. Correct could have been the Japanese name of the plane but I find it odd that the Japanese would call a plane a Helldiver when it was a Dauntless which was in fact replaced by a Helldiver. That is very odd but then History is odd. I could see how Fuchida could have misspoken the name of the plane but, given his other embellishments, I find that hard to believe as well.

[:D][:D][:D]

Given Fuchida's growing nose and the evidence there was no strike on deck(s) I think this is another Fuchidaism. The trustworthiness of his statements made late in his life have to be taken with a chunk of salt.

The Errol Flynn reference made me look him up. He appears to have some interesting links to AE. Ok that is a stretch. [:D] But it was interesting. He bought a tobacco plantation in New Guinea and a copper mine near Port Moresby. He became a US citizen and he wanted to enlist but he was 4F. Around the age of 31, he had a variety of VD's, an enlarged heart with a murmor, had at least one heart attack, back pain for which he was self medicating first with morphine and later on with heroin, and if that was not enough, he had TB and Malaria he pick up in New Guinea. No wonder he died young.

Later,
Dan

The Curtiss SBC-2/SBC-4 (1938 or so vintage of which there are a few in AE in Hornet's early war air group) was nicknamed the Helldiver as was the Grumman (?) F8C of 1931 vintage. The movie I was referring to (with Errol Flynn) in the previous post was called "Divebomber" (1941) and featured Devastators and Vindicators but there was also a movie called "Helldivers" from 1931 or 1932 which was about naval aviation (after a fashion) featuring the aforementioned F8C along with Clark Gable.

I apologize for mixing some fuzzy memories in the previous post.

ORIGINAL: spence

The Curtiss SBC-2/SBC-4 (1938 or so vintage of which there are a few in AE in Hornet's early war air group) was nicknamed the Helldiver as was the Grumman (?) F8C of 1931 vintage. The movie I was referring to (with Errol Flynn) in the previous post was called "Divebomber" (1941) and featured Devastators and Vindicators but there was also a movie called "Helldivers" from 1931 or 1932 which was about naval aviation (after a fashion) featuring the aforementioned F8C along with Clark Gable.

I apologize for mixing some fuzzy memories in the previous post.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033537/ Dive bomber with errol Flynn and Fred McMurray.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022987/ Hell divers. 1931 Clark Gable.

As reported by Fuchida the use by Japanese seamen of the Japanese equivalent of Helldiver does not seem strange in that multiple American Naval Aircraft serving as dive bombers had had that nickname including aircraft featured in a ten year old movie (by 1942) that may well have been seen in theaters in Japan.

Interesting sidenote: According to IMDb (or whatever that movie database is) the U.S Navy censored the film of aircraft shown landing on the Lexington and/or Saratoga in "HELLDIVERS" by blacking out that most secret of technical innovations: the tailhooks on the a/c.

ORIGINAL: spence

As reported by Fuchida the use by Japanese seamen of the Japanese equivalent of Helldiver does not seem strange in that multiple American Naval Aircraft serving as dive bombers had had that nickname including aircraft featured in a ten year old movie (by 1942) that may well have been seen in theaters in Japan.

It could very well be the case. But where is the evidence that the Japanese saw the movie, that the same plane name was used in the Japanese version of the movie and that the IJN then used this name? At the risk of "mirroring", US service members were pretty consistent in using the "correct" name for a given plane. It seems if ANY service was going to use "Hell-diver" to nickname a plane, it would be US service members since they were most likely to have seen the movie.

Here is the text in Zimm's book:

Preparations for a counter-strike agaist the enemy had continued on board our four carriers through out the enemy torpedo attacks. One after another, planes were hoisted from the hanger and quickly arranged on the flight deck. There was no time to lose. At 1020 Admiral Nagumo gave the order to launch when ready. On Akagi's flight deck all planes were in position with engines warming up. The big ship began turning into the wind. Within five minutes all her planes would be launched.

Five minutes! Who would have dreamed that the tide of battle would shift completely in that brief interval of time? ... At 1024 the order to start launching came from the bridge by voice tube. The Air Officer flapped his white flag, and the first Zero fighter gathered speed and whizzed off the deck. At that instant a lookout screamed: "Hell-divers!"

The "..." is for a left out sentence regarding the weather. In Shattered Sword, there is an added sentence to Fuchida's quote, "I looked up to see three enemy planes plummeting towards our ship." Three US dive bombers did attack the Akagi. So that part of the story fits and it is interesting in that the bomb(s) from those three planes hit the Akagi.

In Shattered Sword, the quotes I can find from Japanese sailors about US dive bombers, all said "dive bombers."

Later,
Dan