Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: Shazman

[...]
Of course there were losses to AAA fire. 71ozad is a AAA unit with a AAA icon. No problem with units with a AAA icon. WAD.

Of course it's "of course". But the point of my post was not what was in the log fragment I've attached but what was missing in another log fragment posted above. That missing parts (plus the AirCombat lines above Combat lines there ) are clear indications that airplane loses there were not the result of ani-aircraft fire.

But if you are after something which is maybe not so "of course" here is another log fragment:

Combat :Begin Axis attack on location 34,97.
Combat :Removing available equipment from combat inventory.
News : Axis attack location 34,97 (Augustov).
Combat :Removing available equipment from combat inventory.
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1 supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Soviet ZF (ZapOVO), 13po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 68UR contributes anti-aircraft fire (25).
AIRCombat: Soviet 3A, 27/345 contributes anti-aircraft fire (8).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 84po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat:Attempt Penetration: Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1.
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54 supports the attack.
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-) supports the attack.
News :Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26 supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Committed to furball: Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-).
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-) escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:End penetration attempt.
AIRCombat:KG 1 targeted by Soviet anti-aircraft fire (159/495).

Combat : Smite: Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1, (anti-air low), attrition%= 5.
Combat : Weighted direct combat losses: 0%
Combat : Check morale: Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1, ouch=0,ouch threshold=50.
Combat : Morale check passed (low casualties).
Combat : End smite...

Combat :Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1 equipment added to combat inventory.
Supply :Air Support:,5,Axis Luftflotte 1, KG 1
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77 supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Soviet ZF (ZapOVO), 13po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 68UR contributes anti-aircraft fire (25).
AIRCombat: Soviet 3A, 27/345 contributes anti-aircraft fire (8).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 84po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat:Attempt Penetration: Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77.
News :Axis Luftflotte 2, III/IV JG 51 supports the attack.
News :Axis Luftflotte 2, Erg/II ZG 26 supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Committed to furball: Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-).
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-) escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, III/IV JG 51.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, III/IV JG 51 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, Erg/II ZG 26.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, Erg/II ZG 26 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:End penetration attempt.
AIRCombat:II/III KG 77 targeted by Soviet anti-aircraft fire (159/459).

Combat : Smite: Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77, (anti-air low), attrition%= 5.
Combat : Soviet weapons firing on Axis Ju-88 (early).
Combat : Weighted direct combat losses: 0%
Combat : Check morale: Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77, ouch=0,ouch threshold=50.
Combat : Morale check passed (low casualties).
Combat : End smite...

Combat :Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77 equipment added to combat inventory.
Supply :Air Support:,5,Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III KG 77
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Soviet ZF (ZapOVO), 13po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 68UR contributes anti-aircraft fire (25).
AIRCombat: Soviet 3A, 27/345 contributes anti-aircraft fire (8).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 84po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat:Attempt Penetration: Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp.
News :Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III JG 54 supports the attack.
News :Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III JG 27 supports the attack.
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat: Committed to furball: Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, ZG 26 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III JG 27.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III JG 27 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:End penetration attempt.
AIRCombat:KüstFlGrp targeted by Soviet anti-aircraft fire (159/295).

Combat : Smite: Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp, (anti-air low), attrition%= 7.
Combat : Soviet weapons firing on Axis Ju-88 (early).
Combat : Ju-88 (early) destroyed.
Combat : Weighted direct combat losses: 4%
Combat : Check morale: Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp, ouch=37,ouch threshold=50.
Combat : Morale check failed (loss tolerance exceeded).
Combat : End smite...

Combat :Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp equipment added to combat inventory.
Supply :Air Support:,5,Axis Luftflotte 1, KüstFlGrp
News :Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53 supports the attack.
AIRCombat: Soviet ZF (ZapOVO), 13po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 68UR contributes anti-aircraft fire (25).
AIRCombat: Soviet 3A, 27/345 contributes anti-aircraft fire (8).
AIRCombat: Soviet BelPO, 84po contributes anti-aircraft fire (10).
AIRCombat:Attempt Penetration: Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53.
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, I. /JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III JG 54.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II/III JG 54 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-).
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 1, II. /JG 53 (-) escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat: Committed to furball: Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:Committed to furball (escort): Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III JG 27.
Combat : Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III JG 27 escapes attrition (insufficient attack).
AIRCombat:End penetration attempt.
AIRCombat:II/III KG 53 targeted by Soviet anti-aircraft fire (159/482).

Combat : Smite: Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53, (anti-air low), attrition%= 5.
Combat : Soviet weapons firing on Axis He-111.
Combat : He-111 destroyed.
Combat : Soviet weapons firing on Axis He-111.
Combat : He-111 destroyed.
Combat : Weighted direct combat losses: 5%
Combat : Check morale: Axis Luftflotte 2, II/III KG 53, ouch=45,ouch threshold=50.
Combat : Morale check passed (low casualties).
Combat : End smite...

That was taken from DNO scenario, first turn, attack on Augustow location. Note all four defending units contributing to AA-fire with their AA strengths listed and also rather high (at least for that scenario) cumulative AA fire strength of 159 (159 = [10+25+8+10] times 3). Of course that result was taken using slightly modified OPART program (patched to allow all units participate in AA fire). Is it WAD or not WAD I would'nt dare to judge

note: quote above is only a fragment(but still rather long one) in case you would like to verify whole action related to attack on Augustow location it is attached in the file.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:38 pm**

So you are telling me you have a patched version of 3.4 where the AAA in non AAA units actually works? Exactly where can someone get this patched 3.4 and why doesn't anyone know about it nor said it even exists????? [&:]

Will be very interested to see your reply to this.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:42 pm**

ORIGINAL: Shazman
So you are telling me you have a patched version of 3.4 where the AAA in non AAA units actually works? Exactly where can someone get this patched 3.4 and why doesn't anyone know about it nor said it even exists????? [&:]

Will be very interested to see your reply to this.

Well, yes I've patched 3.4.0.202 exe file so that all units are contributing to low altitude AAA fire as if they were AAA units. Honestly I'm not sure if that gonna be the right solution to the problem (please take a look at that post for why I think it may be not quite so). Please note also I didn't test it much yet even within the single scenario I'm currently playing with - for example I didn't yet test bridge attacks nor attacks against naval units (should work the same as other attacks but you never know before you test). And to judge usefullness of that patch one would have to check it in multitude of other scenarios. Even if I had enough time and patience to try it being new to TOAW I certainly don't have enough knowleadge about all tricks and quirks of tOAW to do it in credible way.
When you take the above into account I guess you will get reasonable answer for "why doesn't anyone know about it nor said it even exists???" and if that answer is not enough please imagine someone unknown posting on that forum binary program claiming it to be great solution for a bug in your favorite game. I guess most people would treat such post at best as spamming, at worst as yet another wicked attempt to spread some virus or trojan. Probably rightly so taking into account how easy it is to catch some sh*t on the Internet these days.

But anyway I am just saying it (the patch) exists, ain't I? [:)] and if you want to test it yourself just send me a PM with your email address and I will send it to you.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:36 am**

if you want to test it yourself just send me a PM with your email address and I will send it to you

PM sent kmitahj dude. I'd like to test that bad boy myself.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:21 am**

PM sent.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:32 am**

Larry,
Patch v3.4.0.202 (33mb) can be down loaded from the MG website (posted 10 Feb 2011)

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:35 am**

ORIGINAL: fogger
Larry,
Patch v3.4.0.202 (33mb) can be down loaded from the MG website (posted 10 Feb 2011)

Thanks fogger dude but I've already got a copy of it. I appreciate you thinking of me however. It's people like you that make this
world a little bit better for the rest of us. Thanks.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:28 am**

ORIGINAL: kmitahj

Well, yes I've patched 3.4.0.202 exe file so that all units are contributing to low altitude AAA fire as if they were AAA units.

And how would you have done so?

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:00 pm**

ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: kmitahj

Well, yes I've patched 3.4.0.202 exe file so that all units are contributing to low altitude AAA fire as if they were AAA units.
And how would you have done so?

How? Patience is a virtue. Programming background and some programmer tools were useful too but the main tool was defintely patience. A lot of it! [:)]
Note that the patch itself is pretty simple if not dumb one: all it does is disabling a check for AA-unit type in one selected place. Finding such right place to change is of course the real issue and with no access to source code it costs a lot of work and time (rather boring work to be frank).
That's it unless you are really interested in the gory details or in repeating such an experiment yourself!.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: kmitahj

ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: kmitahj

Well, yes I've patched 3.4.0.202 exe file so that all units are contributing to low altitude AAA fire as if they were AAA units.
And how would you have done so?
How? Patience is a virtue. Programming background and some programmer tools were useful too but the main tool was defintely patience. A lot of it! [:)]
Note that the patch itself is pretty simple if not dumb one: all it does is disabling a check for AA-unit type in one selected place. Finding such right place to change is of course the real issue and with no access to source code it costs a lot of work and time (rather boring work to be frank).
That's it unless you are really interested in the gory details or in repeating such an experiment yourself!.

Good show, but... d/l link, please?! It's of utmost importance that I can use it to finalize the Kharkpv '43 and the upcoming (alas planned...) Mius '43 scenario!

Klink, Oberst

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:18 pm**

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
[...]
Good show, but... d/l link, please?! It's of utmost importance that I can use it to finalize the Kharkpv '43 and the upcoming (alas planned...) Mius '43 scenario!

Klink, Oberst

Hello Herr Oberst,
There is no download link per see because it is just home-made patch, and as such it's result of hacking rather then software engineering [;)]
I think it should be said clearly just to avoid setting hopes too high. As it is the patch should be treated rather as "what if" test case or food for thought in discussion what the final solution should look like. Only after critical evaluation by people like you - that is experienced in designing scenarios - it could be decided if the patch has a potential for beeing a solution.
That beeing said if you would like to take a look and test it for yourself PM me please with your email address and I will send it to you (or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

Speaking of patch deficiences here is one discovered in latest tests. As I said above it is rather dumb patch: it is allowing literally all units in range to participate in AAA fire. All units in this case means that also AIR units within fixed range (50km) may contribute to AAA fire as if they were equipped with long-range SAM missiles. BAD!!!
I'm going to find a way to exclude AIR units (and only AIR units) from participating in AAA procedure. However such bit smarter version won't be ready before weekend when I should have some time to work at it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: kmitahj
...(or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

I just now sent a copy to Colonel Klink. I didn't mind.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:31 pm**

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: USXpat

....
For Matrix, it's a choice between a combined arms development paradigm or sticking to trench warfare.

Not sure if the pun on Combined Arms is intended, but when you stick in the same sentence 'Matrix', 'Combined Arms' and 'development', inside me there's a voice tha instantly goes 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...'.

Also, not sure why, but suddenly a tumble-weed came to my mind. [:D]

heh, no... that wasn't an intentional reference to the other project, more a matter of using a 3-d printer vs. a typewriter analogy. I'll take better care with those... heh...

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:35 pm**

Just pointing out a free to download book on the Luftwaffe, with lots of notes on air losses during WWII.

Williamson Murray's 'Strategy for Defeat', published by Air University Press.

By looking at different sources it seems to me that effective AA should contribute 'significantly' to overall aircraft losses. I would handwave wildly to say about 30-50%.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:29 pm**

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:44 am**

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z

Yeah, make it an arcade game so even a brainless moron can play it. Who wants to have to think when playing a game, right? [8|]

Worst idea ever.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:28 am**

All this started by not even a good rumor...
First as long as there is no official R.I.P. and as long as there isn't at least 5 years since the last life sign of Ralph I still consider this game as ALIVE.
Second, please start the next useless thread with a good rumor like "TOAW III is disguised NSA Spysoftware" or something like that, hearing nothing is simply that NOTHING and not a sign of a discontinued game.
Third, thanks to governato for the only useful thing here.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:04 am**

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
...
First as long as there is no official R.I.P. and as long as there isn't at least 5 years since the last life sign of Ralph I still consider this game as ALIVE.
...

Judging by Combined Arms you need to extend that time frame to about 15 years.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:59 am**

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z

Movement rates can be adjusted in the editor, same for other important tweaks. No need to adjust this. The ignore losses/fortification 'issue' should be the next on the list

Klink, Oberst

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:38 am**

ORIGINAL: kmitahj

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
[...]
Good show, but... d/l link, please?! It's of utmost importance that I can use it to finalize the Kharkpv '43 and the upcoming (alas planned...) Mius '43 scenario!

Klink, Oberst
Hello Herr Oberst,
There is no download link per see because it is just home-made patch, and as such it's result of hacking rather then software engineering [;)]
I think it should be said clearly just to avoid setting hopes too high. As it is the patch should be treated rather as "what if" test case or food for thought in discussion what the final solution should look like. Only after critical evaluation by people like you - that is experienced in designing scenarios - it could be decided if the patch has a potential for beeing a solution.
That beeing said if you would like to take a look and test it for yourself PM me please with your email address and I will send it to you (or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

Speaking of patch deficiences here is one discovered in latest tests. As I said above it is rather dumb patch: it is allowing literally all units in range to participate in AAA fire. All units in this case means that also AIR units within fixed range (50km) may contribute to AAA fire as if they were equipped with long-range SAM missiles. BAD!!!
I'm going to find a way to exclude AIR units (and only AIR units) from participating in AAA procedure. However such bit smarter version won't be ready before weekend when I should have some time to work at it.

It is a feat of reverse engineering mate! It makes a BIG difference and I have been running tests that look overall more than promising! If losses are too high, one can simply use the AAA lethality settings in the editor to adjust it

Again, well done mate! +1

Klink, Oberst

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