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Part of your infantry problems in AGC come from the fact that you are trying to advance everywhere on a 400 miles front (Peno - Konotop )
with 36 infantry +1 cavalry division.

select 2 braketrough sectors : 40 miles each , total braketrough frontage 80 miles .
rest of the front (320miles) should get just enogh forces for pursuit and flank protection :
320/2= 160 miles can be held by just 15 infantry divisions and 1 cavalry .

In braketrough sectors you would have 3 divisions per hex by ading just 3 mobile units :

21inf +3 mot =24/8 hex =3 unit per hex

Yes, I have to rethink force deployments, especially now with 4th Panzer Group and the Leningrad divisions arriving. I just don't know whether I have enough time for a major redeployment before mud strikes. Currently I have planned to pull together infantry in three sectors, but haven't decided whether to go through with it. One sector would be north of Rzhev, concentrating VI., V., XXIII. and XXXXII. AK, with 3rd Panzer Group behind them. Another would be south of Gzhatsk, with XXXVIII., XX., I. AK, as well as another two or three high morale divisions from II. AK. The last sector would be around Kozalsk - Belek with LIII., IX., VII. and XIII. AK.

I would put up the atack north of Rzhev but launch a suporting atack in the north across the Msta targeting V. Volochek.
the valday hils are a nightmare to atack frontaly and must be threaten with encirclement .

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

I would put up the atack north of Rzhev but launch a suporting atack in the north across the Msta targeting V. Volochek.
the valday hils are a nightmare to atack frontaly and must be threaten with encirclement .

Indeed. I already pushed X. AK with 4 divisions to the Msta in order to break over the river along lake Ilmen to open up the road for XXVIII. AK south of lake. Furthermore another 6 divisions of 18th Army will either cross the Msta from the north, or attack along with XXVIII. AK from the south.

I read Loki's report of his relief of the Vyazma pocket and I'm still amazed, particularly at the successful counterattack from within the pocket.  Presumably you can trap all those units for sure next turn?

In the South, I see you're having some problems with the Soviet cavalry; about this time or maybe in another couple of turns I think they get a whole bunch of really irritating cav brigades.  Good luck containing them.

Turn 11: 28th August 1941 - 3rd September 1941

Army Group North



In the light of Leningrad Front's retreat from the Volkhov and Svir that began on 26th August, the German and Finnish divisions picked up the pursuit from the 28th on. A week later 16th Army slowly regained contact with the Soviet forces and its forward division was only 20 miles away from Karelian Army's forward brigade that had crossed the Svir. [Note 1]

On 28th August the German L. and XXVI. AK continued with the eradication of the Leningrad pocket, successfully eliminating the remnants of 23rd Army. On 1st September the last Soviet defenders surrendered and 20.000 men walked into captivity.

In the meantime Army Group North conducted a massive reorganization of its forces. 16th Army lost XXVIII. AK south of Lake Ilmen to 18th Army, as Army Group command decided to shift 18th Army to the Pola - Valdai region. In its stead LI. AK of 4th Panzer Group was reassigned to 16th Army, putting 16th Army in exclusive control over the Volkhov operations. Moreover II. AK lost its three strongest divisions with 12th, 30th and 32nd Infantry Division, which were replaced by 339th and 707th Static Division, with the Spanish 250th Infantry Division on the way.

Army Group Centre



In the centre portion of the front, Army Group Centre continued operations mainly with infantry force. Near Rzhev XXXXII. and XXIII. AK forced a crossing over Volga on 1st September, but a determined Soviet counterattack the following forced 106th Infantry Division to retreat back behind it.

Near Vyazma the bruised and battered VIII. AK was taken out of the front and in its stead the newly arrived XXXVIII. AK was inserted into the front under 3rd Panzer Group (which in return lost VI. AK to 18th Army of Army Group North). The corps immediately was utilized to reseal the Vyazma pocket and further Soviet breakout attempts proved to be futile.

South of Vyazma von Kluge's 4th Army pushed over Ugra and Bolva, leading to a general retreat of the Soviet forces standing in the vicinity of Sukhinichi. At Bryansk VII. AK attacked the city a second time on 29th August and by the evening of the 2nd September Bryansk was firmly in German hands.

German reconnaissance conducted in the early September days revealed strong defensive lines in front of Moscow that were 20 miles deep. With Tula also strongly guarded, the German high command was concerned about the pace of the German advance in the region, that had already severely deteriorated since mid-August.

Army Group South



In the same week, Army Group South's divisions continued their week-long pursuit of the Soviet Southwestern Front. By 3rd September the Germans stood 30 miles west of Kharkov, but its industry was already moved to Siberia. With the Army Group South wanting to avoid a bloody frontal assault, von Rundstedt ordered von Reichenau's 6th Army to mass its divisions and punch through the Soviet lines between Belgorod and Kharkov, setting up a hole for XIV. and XXXXVI. AK (mot.) to drive through.

South of Kharkov IV. AK of 17th Army was to attempt a Donets crossing by itself, perhaps with a little support from XXXXIX. GK. The plan to send III. AK (mot.) over the Donets north was put in severe doubt, due to the supply difficulties encountered by the Germans in the Stalino region. [Note 2] Along the Mius the Soviet forces enjoyed a successful counterattack against the Rumanian cavalry corps, which had been guarding the northern flank of XXXXVIII. AK (mot.). [Note 3]

In the meantime LIV. AK and the Rumanian 3rd Army launched their combined strike against the isthmus of Perekop on 30th August. After four days of battle the road into the peninsula was open, when LIV. AK drove the Soviets out of Ishun on 3rd September. Following this push, the Soviet Coastal Army largely evacuated the northern half of the Crimea, save for a lone rifle division, which was tasked with delaying the Axis forces for as long as possible.

Air War

With the ground war calming down in the last weeks of August, Hitler gave Göring's Luftwaffe permission to conduct their first independent operations since the opening day airfield bombardments. The Luftwaffe promply went to work and in the week from 28th August to 3rd September conducted 22 intercepting missions over Soviet airfields. As a result the VVS suffered its highest losses since the beginning of the war, with 488 destroyed combat aircraft, though not all of them came at the hands of the Luftwaffe. German losses were moderate with 54 planes lost, for a casualty ratio of 9:1.

[Note 1: Only the Finnish units that are withdrawing in October are going south of the No-Attack-Line at this point. I don't want to prematurely botch up the morale of the permanent units.]

[Note 2: Stupid mistake there, miscalculated the distance to the railhead and the HQ of the panzer corps ended up 1 hex over the supply limit. So its divisions only have 1 MP right now and in addition 13th Panzer Division lost 1 morale point to 85.]

[Note 3: The unnecessary push over the Mius really is hurting me, XXXXVIII. AK is basically bound there, unable to do anything until infantry and supply catches up. Wasted three to four turns there. All in all I have done a poor job handling the South after the Stalino raid.]

Did you send all transport groups south ?

In the north the job is done and in the center the rails should be catching up .

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Did you send all transport groups south ?

In the north the job is done and in the center the rails should be catching up .

Not yet, was planning it for this turn. Had to fly in some to 3rd Panzer Group with the pocket broken the last turn. The North got stripped of its transports after the fall of Osinovets.

Monthly Report: August 1941


Frontline 5th September 1941. Situation on 31st July 1941 described by the dotted line.

In the month of August due to a combination of logistical problems and increasing Soviet resistance, the pace of the German advance slowed down. Still, Army Group North managed to capture Leningrad in late August after intense battles and pushed over the Volkhov. In the middle part of the front Army Group Centre breached the Vyazma line and closed in on Tula and Moscow. In the Ukraine meanwhile, Army Group South exploited the retreating Soviet forces and reached Stalino.

Losses

Due to the heavy battles at Leningrad and Vyazma, Axis losses in August 1941 were the highest since the beginning of the war, with the Germans taking the majority of them. Over 125.000 men were lost, with 38.469 killed in action and another 657 missing. Likewise gun losses spiked to 1.053 pieces. AFV losses, however, were moderate with 565. Luftwaffe losses were in line with their July totals. In August 1941 41 fighters, 27 fighter bombers, 18 tactical bombers and 87 level bombers were recorded as destroyed. Additionally 86 reconnaisssance aircraft and 19 transports were lost.

Red Army losses on the other hand were also slightly higher than in July. The Soviets suffered nearly 500.000 men in casualties, with 37.965 killed and 360.102 taken prisoner. Artillery losses were at 7.635, while tank losses dropped to 1.866. The VVS losses also rose in the light of the higher intensity of the August battles. 921 fighter bombers, 85 tactical bombers and 299 level bombers were reported to have been shot down.

OOB

On 4th September 1941 the German forces in the East possessed 3.454.195 men with 34.950 guns under arms. Mobile formations reported a total AFV strength of 2.643 (1.934 in the panzer divisions), while the Luftwaffe possessed 3.202 planes, despite losing numerous formations to other theatres.

Numbers compiled by Fremde Heere Ost revealed Soviet strength to be at 4.643.802 men, 44.537 guns, 3.736 AFVs and 4.937 planes.

Heeresgruppe Nord (v. Leeb)

16. Armee (Busch) - 204.597 men, 2.068 guns, 0 AFVs
II. AK (v. Brockdorff-Ahlefeldt) - 4 infantry divisions
X. AK (Hansen) - 4 infantry divisions
LI. AK (Reinhard) - 4 infantry divisions

18. Armee (v. Küchler) - 305.247 men, 3.295 guns, 21 AFVs
I. AK (Model) - 3 infantry divisions
VI. AK (Laux) - 3 infantry divisions
XXVI. AK (Wodrig) - 3 infantry divisions
XXVIII. AK (v. Wiktorin) - 3 infantry divisions
L. AK (Lindemann) - 3 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 4 (Hoepner) - 127.845 men, 1.285 guns, 442 AFVs
XXXXI. AK (mot.) (Reinhardt) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division
LVI. AK (mot.) (v. Manstein) - 1 panzer division, 1 motorized division, 1 SS divisions

Heeresgruppe Mitte (v. Bock)

2. Armee (v. Weichs) - 161.083 men, 1.694 guns, 0 AFVs
1. K.D.
8. SS-K.B.
XIII. AK (Angelis) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXV. AK (Kämpfe) - 4 infantry divisions

4. Armee (v. Kluge) - 232.503 men, 2.718 guns, 55 AFVs
VII. AK (Fahrmbacher) - 3 infantry divisions
IX. AK (Hell) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXIII. AK (Heinrici) - 3 infantry divisions
LIII. AK (Weisenberger) - 3 infantry divisions

9. Armee (Strauss) - 250.912 men, 2.888 guns, 34 AFVs
VIII. AK (Heitz) - 3 infantry divisions
XX. AK (Materna) - 3 infantry divisions
XXIII. AK (Schubert) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXII. AK (Mieth) - 4 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 2 (Guderian) - 203.865 men, 2.202 guns, 671 AFVs
XII. AK (Schroth) - 3 infantry divisions
XXIV. AK (mot.) (v. Schweppenburg) - 2 panzer divisions, 2 motorized divisions
XXXXVII. AK (mot.) (Lemelsen) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized divisions

Panzergruppe 3 (Hoth) - 235.480 men, 2.479 guns, 569 AFVs
V. AK (Ruoff) - 2 infantry divisions
XXXVIII. AK (v. Chappuis) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXIX. AK (mot.) (Schmidt) - 2 panzer divisions, 2 motorized divisions
LVII. AK (mot.) (Kuntzen) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division, 1 motorized brigade

Heeresgruppe Süd (v. Rundstedt)

6. Armee (v. Reichenau) - 253.196 men, 2.757 guns, 0 AFVs
XVII. AK (Kienitz) - 4 infantry divisions
XXIX. AK (v. Obstfelder) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXIV. AK (Koch) - 2 infantry division, 1 Slovakian division
LV. AK (Vierow) - 3 infantry divisions

11. Armee (v. Schubert) - 270.651 men, 2.678 guns, 20 AFVs
XI. AK (v. Kortzfleisch) - 3 infantry divisions
XXX. AK (v. Salmuth) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 airlanding division
XXXIV. AK (Schaal) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 mountain division
LIV. AK (Hansen) - 3 infantry divisions

17. Armee (v. Stülpnagel) - 228.436 men, 2.565 guns, 72 AFVs
IV. AK (v. Schwedler) - 4 infantry divisions
XXXXIX. GK (Kübler) - 3 infantry divisions, 1 mountain division
LII. AK (v. Briesen) - 4 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 1 (v. Kleist) - 244.024 men, 2.830 guns, 696 AFVs
III. AK (mot.) (v. Mackensen) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division, 1 Slovakian division
XIV. AK (mot.) (v. Knobelsdorff) - 1 panzer division, 1 SS division, 1 SS motorized brigade, Großdeutschland
XXXXVI. AK (mot.) (v. Vietinghoff) - 1 panzer division, 2 SS divisions
XXXXVIII. AK (mot). (Kempf) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division

Armata 3 (Dumitrescu) - 159.565 men, 1.440 guns, 61 AFVs
4 infantry divisions
Corp. de Munte (Avramescu) - 1 infantry division, 3 mountain brigades
Corp. de Cav. (Racovita) - 1 armoured division, 2 cavalry brigades

Armata 4 (Ciuperca) - 253.509 men, 2.083 guns, 4 AFVs
Corp. 2 (Macici) - 2 infantry divisions
Corp. 3 (Atanasiu) - 3 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry brigade
Corp. 5 (Levanti) - 3 infantry divisions
Corp. 11 (Constantinescu-Claps) - 1 infantry division, 2 infantry brigades

Gyorshadtest (Miklos) - 2 motorized brigades, 1 cavalry brigade

CSIR (Messe) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry division

Economy

On 4th September 1941 the German war machine possessed 47.016 men in their barracks back home, while 96.687 armaments were at stock. The motor pool dropped to 177.241, while the amount of vehicles in units was reduced to 144.607 with a need of 144.923.

In regards to factory evacuation the Soviets managed to rail out 106 armament factories. Only 7 were destroyed by advancing German forces, with 29 locked down at Stalino. In terms of heavy industry the Soviets only had evacuated at total of 8 factories, while 39 were already destroyed along the path of the invading German forces.

Turn 12: 4th September 1941 - 10th September 1941

Army Group North

In the northern portion of the front the German and Finnish units coming from the Volkhov managed to link up with the Finnish Karelian Army on 8th September 1941 and thus a continuous frontline from Lake Onega to Lake Ilmen was formed.

Around Lake Ilmen 16th Army's X. AK punched over the Msta in heavy battles and secured a strong foothold over the river. By the end of the week their leading units stood only 20 miles away from XXVIII. AK's positions along the Pola.

Army Group Centre



Meanwhile at Army Group Centre the slaughter continued. Near Vyazma 10 divisions of 20th and 33rd Army surrendered in the week from the 4th to the 10th September 1941, totalling another 106.630 POWs. East of Vyazma 3rd Panzer Group brought the mass of the fresh XXXVIII. AK to the front and the first line of the Soviet defenses in front of Mozhaysk was cracked. Soviet counterattacks against 9th Army's 162nd Infantry Division guarding the flank of 3rd Panzer Group's positions at Gzhatsk were repelled, when 14th and 20th Motorized Division intervened to seal off any possible breakthrough attempts. 21st Army lost over 3.400 men in fruitless assaults between 7th and 9th September.

South of the Ugra Guderian's panzers began to move towards Kaluga - Tula with assistance of 4th Army's infantry. On 5th September the important railway junction at Sukhinichi was captured when LIII. AK drove 107th Tank Division at and 282nd Rifle Division near the city out of their positions. One day later the last obstacles in front of the Oka south of Kaluga was cleared and 2nd Panzer Group reached the banks of the river in the early morning hours of the 7th September. Three days later the entire east bank of the Oka between Kaluga and Cherepet was in German hands, after 3rd Army was forced to retreat from their fortified positions along the river.

In the same week Soviet partisan activities impacted the German operations significantly for the first time in the war. A partisan battalion near Polotsk managed to blow up the entire railway system near Polotsk in the nights of the 8th and 9th September, breaking Army Group Centre's main supply line. Additionally repairs meant that XXXXI. AK (mot.) couldn't reach Smolensk by rail the following week.



Army Group South



In the Ukraine Army Group South continued its pursuit of the retreating Soviet forces north of Kharkov, while around and south of the city the German divisions made contact with the enemy by 9th September.

Around Stalino XXXIV. AK drove the Red Army out of Makeevka on 6th September. But a strong counterattack hit the exposed 4th Mountain Division east of the city and as a result it was routed. [Note 1]

Along the Mius XXXXVIII. AK (mot.) was pulled out in order to bring the corps back into supply. Its positions on the east side of the river was taken by XXX. AK's infantry. Once again the Rumanian Cavalry Corps was the victim of determined Soviet attacks and for the second consecutive week it was driven back.



After forcing their way past the isthmus of Perekop, LIV. AK and the Rumanian 4th Army proceeded to break out into the open, while the Soviets fell back towards Simferopol and Kerch. On 10th September LIV. AK's forward division was standing at Sarabuz, some 20 miles north of Simferopol

Air War

For the second week in a row the Luftwaffe brought the hammer down on the VVS. This time, however, while simulaneusly conducting ground support missions. Between 4th and 10th September the VVS lost 490 combat aircraft, as opposed to 65 for the Luftwaffe. Luftwaffe fighter losses, however, reached a new high with 26 fighters and 6 fighter bombers.

[Note 1: What hurts more is the morale loss. The division dropped from 81 to 77 morale.]

SigUp
The southern hook does not realy ispire confidence at this point , the oka river is a formidable barier that should not be taken lightly .
for your sake I hope it is a faint, not the main aproach.

The target of 2nd Panzer's push isn't really Moscow. I'm trying to secure Tula before mud, while hopefully encircling some divisions around Kaluga. I had thought about utilizing 2nd Panzer in the space between Tula and Orel, but due to the two rivers standing in the way, discarded that idea. Right now I don't really know about Moscow, especially after that partisan stunt at Polotsk. I doubt I can capture the city. So my focus is on the short term goal of the units around Rzhev and Kaluga. Concerning the former, I think loki hasn't spotted LVI. in the woods at Belyi yet. So right now I can bank on the element of surprise, but XXXXI. needs another turn (hopefully not two due to the messed up rail net) before it is ready.

After that mud will probably hit and afterwards I'm thinking about swinging 2nd Panzer south and 1st Panzer north to secure as much space as possible for the blizzard retreat in the flatlands between Orel and Kharkov.

ORIGINAL: SigUp

The target of 2nd Panzer's push isn't really Moscow. I'm trying to secure Tula before mud, while hopefully encircling some divisions around Kaluga. I had thought about utilizing 2nd Panzer in the space between Tula and Orel, but due to the two rivers standing in the way, discarded that idea. Right now I don't really know about Moscow, especially after that partisan stunt at Polotsk. I doubt I can capture the city. So my focus is on the short term goal of the units around Rzhev and Kaluga. Concerning the former, I think loki hasn't spotted LVI. in the woods at Belyi yet. So right now I can bank on the element of surprise, but XXXXI. needs another turn (hopefully not two due to the messed up rail net) before it is ready.

After that mud will probably hit and afterwards I'm thinking about swinging 2nd Panzer south and 1st Panzer north to secure as much space as possible for the blizzard retreat in the flatlands between Orel and Kharkov.

I am a firm beliver in the sheer force of infantry asault, but for that you need to use armor to cover the flanks and concentrate infantry.

4th army frontage : 60 milles.

Turn 13: 11th September 1941 - 17th September 1941

Army Group North

In the second September week Army Group North continued its slow infantry advance, while the Fins held a loose line from Tikhvin to Lake Onega. Around Lake Ilmen X. AK and L. AK forced their way over the Msta at another two spots. At the same time XXVIII. AK crossed the Pola with two divisions.

Army Group Centre



On 11th September at long last the panzer strike of 3rd and 4th Panzer Groups was unleashed. North of Rzhev V., XXIII. and XXXXII. AK expanded the Volga bridgehead to 30 miles and cleared the road for von Manstein's LVI. AK (mot.) whose 3rd Motorized Division reached the Volga to the east on 16th September.

During the same stretch 3rd Panzer Group opened its strike around Gzhatsk with a massive infantry assault conducted by Model's elite I. AK with support from XX. and XXXVIII. AK. By 13th September a 30 miles wide and 20 miles deep hole was breached into the Soviet lines and Hoth's panzers poured through. Schmidt's XXXIX. AK (mot.) reached the eastern bank of the Volga two days later where it waited for LVI. AK (mot.) to close the pocket on 16 Soviet divisions. Meanwhile recon showed that the first line of the Moscow defense line stopped around Volokolamsk and no Soviet units were guarding the Lama up to Turginovo. Hoth and the commander of LVII. AK (mot.) Kuntzen decided to take the chance and poured the corps into the gap. Klin was captured in the early morning hours of the 16th September and forward elements of 12th Panzer Division reached the Moskva-Volga Canal a few hours later. While 18th Motorized and 20th Panzer Division fanned out to hold open a corridor, 12th Panzer Division raided the Soviet airbases north of Khimki before pulling back to Povarovo, 20 miles away from the Soviet capital. [Note 1]

Soviet high command, however, reacted quick and counterattacks were conducted against LVI. AK (mot.)'s lines in the North and XXXIX. AK (mot.)'s lines in the East. While Manstein succeded in repelling the assaults, Schmidt's 19th Panzer Division was forced to retreat and Schmidt's HQ had to be hastily evacuated. Thus on the evening of the 17th September a small corridor was reopened to the trapped Soviet formations around Rzhev. [Note 2]

South of Kaluga Guderian began to pull his panzers out after the infantry of 4th Army crossed the Oka to relieve them.

Army Group South



In the South 6th Army closed in on Belgorod and reached the Donets, while 17th Army created a bridgehead over the river south of Kharkov. von Kleist's panzers rushed into that hole and threatened with encirclement the Soviets pulled out of Kharkov save for a lone division left to hold the city.



In the Crimea LIV. AK captured Simferopol and began to close in on the fortress of Sevastopol. To its east the Rumanian 4th Army was on the verge of splitting the peninsula in two with its march toward Kerch.

Air War

The week from 11th to 17th September saw heavy air combat and the German losses soared. All in all the Luftwaffe lost 109 combat aircraft. The VVS, however, also suffered from the battles and coupled with 12th Panzer Division's raid on the airbases north of Khimki a total of 579 combat aircraft were destroyed. [Note 3]

[Note 1: 12th Panzer Division had enough MPs to get into Khimki, but it would have been more than easy for loki to rout the division out.]

[Note 2: The counterattacks of this turn have increased my doubts of the 1:1 = 2:1 rule. This especially in combination with the sometimes massive CV increases. For example in the attack to reopen the pocket the Soviet CV was modified by 2.14 and factoring the +1 rule it was effectively increased by 4 times for a ratio of 2.1:1. Likewise a counterattack near Orel by 3 rifle and 1 cavalry division had its CV modified by 5.5 times for a 2.2:1 attack.]

[Note 3: Stukas are so brittle that I don't know how to utilize them properly. Every time they arrive in mass they are shot down in dozens by flak fire. Every single one of my 30 Stuka losses was due to anti aircraft fire.]

[Note 2: The counterattacks of this turn have increased my doubts of the 1:1 = 2:1 rule. This especially in combination with the sometimes massive CV increases. For example in the attack to reopen the pocket the Soviet CV was modified by 2.14 and factoring the +1 rule it was effectively increased by 4 times for a ratio of 2.1:1. Likewise a counterattack near Orel by 3 rifle and 1 cavalry division had its CV modified by 5.5 times for a 2.2:1 attack.]

I understand your objection but from a game play point of view it's much more interesting to have the pocket reopened then to just let those troops die. The 2:1 rule makes it more like to reopen pockets.

I would also like to point out that your Tula salient looks like a giant breast with nipple. [:D]

Look like Typhoon has started early [:)]

Imv you should not waste to much time resealing the Rhzev pocket , the soviets have hundreds of divisions by now and 16 more or less
would not matter . Nevertheles the area must be cleared of soviet presence .

The answer to soviet counter atacks are defensive reserves , in the picture I posted, the 22 ofensive cv stack of the 4th army is just that , also the 21 cv stack of the 9th to the north .
Also you need to stack you forces in clear open terain , for instance it would take 7 good soviet divisions to drive a german division out of the woods, but only 5 to kick 2 german divisions in the clear

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Look like Typhoon has started early [:)]

Imv you should not waste to much time resealing the Rhzev pocket , the soviets have hundreds of divisions by now and 16 more or less
would not matter . Nevertheles the area must be cleared of soviet presence .

The answer to soviet counter atacks are defensive reserves , in the picture I posted, the 22 ofensive cv stack of the 4th army is just that , also the 21 cv stack of the 9th to the north .
Also you need to stack you forces in clear open terain , for instance it would take 7 good soviet divisions to drive a german division out of the woods, but only 5 to kick 2 german divisions in the clear

I think I'll still reseal the pocket. The Soviets there have had enough time to dig strong forts and Rzhev will be difficult to take without the CV reductions from encirclement. From our email correspondence loki seems to think that I will use all three panzer groups for a massive Moscow strike but currently I am not too sure. I'm tempted to use 4th Panzer Group to try to force him to evacuate the Valdai and 2nd Panzer to gain ground between Tula and Kursk (with elements of 1st Panzer driving north).

As for defensive reserves, I use them wherever I can, problem is, in these situations I don't have the units with enough MPs as all of them were busy punching open the Soviet lines. In regards to the panzer division that was bounced, I had hoped that marching into a ZOC controlled hex would rob the Soviets of some MPs and the Lama would provide some protection. Guess I was wrong. Perhaps I should have moved that division 1 hex west to Shakovskaya to gain more separation, but then LVII. AK would have been even more exposed.

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

I understand your objection but from a game play point of view it's much more interesting to have the pocket reopened then to just let those troops die. The 2:1 rule makes it more like to reopen pockets.

Well, all three of my 10+ division pockets after the turn 1 encirclements have been broken during his turn. It is a little bit irritating that whenever the Soviets have enough units around the Germans need to stack deep in order to avoid having a pocket broken every single time. My worry right now is that he'll be able to break the Rzhev pocket a second time due to the way my units are lined up in that part of the front.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd also like to point out that we're playing with Soviet morale on 95. So the damage the Soviets can do is already somewhat reduced.

I cant see the figures on the counters from your screenhot but i asume the lower stack had around 8-9 ofensive Cv while the
northern one ,even acros the Lama would bring 4-5 to the fight for a total of 12-14 .

While a fresh panzer division might witstand that , fatigue brings your defensive cv down. If they mach your defensive cv
the masive numerical advantage would work for the soviets even with a average leader .

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

I cant see the figures on the counters from your screenhot but i asume the lower stack had around 8-9 ofensive Cv while the
northern one ,even acros the Lama would bring 4-5 to the fight for a total of 12-14 .

While a fresh panzer division might witstand that , fatigue brings your defensive cv down. If they mach your defensive cv
the masive numerical advantage would work for the soviets even with a average leader .

He attacked with 6 rifle divisions, 3 from the South, 1 over the Lama, 2 from inside the pocket. In total these divisions attacked with 73 CV versus my panzer division with 145. The fatigue of the panzers was around 34-35, while the number of the motorized rifle squad was at 49. The attack was prepared by a bomber strike with 51 bombers costing the division 31 men and 1 AFV in direct casualties.

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

I cant see the figures on the counters from your screenhot but i asume the lower stack had around 8-9 ofensive Cv while the
northern one ,even acros the Lama would bring 4-5 to the fight for a total of 12-14 .

While a fresh panzer division might witstand that , fatigue brings your defensive cv down. If they mach your defensive cv
the masive numerical advantage would work for the soviets even with a average leader .

He attacked with 6 rifle divisions, 3 from the South, 1 over the Lama, 2 from inside the pocket. In total these divisions attacked with 73 CV versus my panzer division with 145. The fatigue of the panzers was around 34-35, while the number of the motorized rifle squad was at 49. The attack was prepared by a bomber strike with 51 bombers costing the division 31 men and 1 AFV in direct casualties.

145 is very good so late in the campaign and with so low initial odds your fustration is understandable .