Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I concede.

But it does seem a bit confusing that they gave Austria a blank check and then were surprised when Austria used it.

I would have to go back to my Tuchman and find all the intricate maneuvers that took place during the blank check phase. If my memory serves there was some confusion between Vienna and Berlin about what the blank check actually entitled.

Bethman-Holwig and the army certainly meant to get a European war going. I believe some if not most thought that they were okaying a quick war between Austria and Serbia not a European conflict.

I am talking about the entire German government, including the Reichstag, not just the major players.

Even Lord Grey conceded that Austria was entitled to everyone but one of the demands and a quick assault to take Belgrade

warspite1

Yes and this is one of the reasons for my comment in post 4. What seems clear from all the evidence is that countries were not necessarily united in their hopes and plans - none more so than the Germans, the Kaiser blew hot and cold on the subject, von Moltke seemed to be gagging for a fight, while Bethmann Hollweg was up for it under certain conditions. Just more complicating factors to throw into the mix.

Yes it was a question! So thank you I wasn't sure. While Germany was the aggressor I think it was a mix of France, England and Russia along with Germany and Austria-Hungry who help push Europe to war. You have not stated what/how you feel on this subject as it would be interesting to know what you think.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sure sure remind me again who declared war on whom?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.

warspite1

Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia 28th July
Germany declared war on Russia 1st August
Germany declared war on France 3rd August
Germany declared war on Belgium 4th August

Can you clarify what point are you making please or was this a genuine question?

That is what I was trying to poorly convey in my posts.

I have seen and heard the " blank check" " as a totally done deal with all the players in Germany and AH all on the same page.

As you said it was much more muddled than that.

It surprises me, although I do not know why, that two different telegrams ( 1870,1914 )were played with by German chancellors to get the results they wanted.

One to cause a war and one to make sure a war happened.

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Yes it was a question! So thank you I wasn't sure. While Germany was the aggressor I think it was a mix of France, England and Russia along with Germany and Austria-Hungry who help push Europe to war. You have not stated what/how you feel on this subject as it would be interesting to know what you think.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sure sure remind me again who declared war on whom?

warspite1

Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia 28th July
Germany declared war on Russia 1st August
Germany declared war on France 3rd August
Germany declared war on Belgium 4th August

Can you clarify what point are you making please or was this a genuine question?

Warspite1

Yes I did - please see post 4.

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!! [:D]
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances

I'm not much of an expert in WWI so I won't claim this strongly as it's only based upon my own reading of the situation. However, I've always viewed the direct answer to that question as "Serbian Millitary" as I believe evidence is unrefuted that it supported the Black Hand in it's terrorist campaign.

Simply put, you can't have your own millitary go around supporting and participating in terrorist campaigns that assasinate foreign Principates without expecting an armed response from the government of the party you assasinated.

Whether Austria-Hungaries demands in response were reasonable can be debated (frankly given the history there, I'm not so convinced they were all that unreasonable) but the crux of the matter is that if your millitary is responsible for offing somebody elses Prince...you should reasonably expect a fight, and don't really have much cause to complain when you get one. YMMV.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.
There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?
Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?

Warspite1, thanks for asking. I don't write to offend and hope my points of view come across with little misunderstanding.

Went back in time this weekend.

What i found to answer your question warspite1, is that world war one began long before Jul/Aug 1914. I do lay the blame on Germany and AH. They had to work together for a World War to begin.

Bismarck before he died predicted a world war would begin in the east.

1st lord of the Admiralty Lord Fisher predicted war would begin in 1914 on a weekend bank holiday in Oct. His prediction was based on the Kiel Canal being being deep enough to allow German Dreadnoughts into the North Sea.

When the crisis of assassination happened. The English Fleet was visiting Germany and Russia with some of its most powerful ships. They left Best Friends Forever.

Germany and AH crafted a lead up to war with Serbia that points at them being the aggressors. The fact that Italy had an alliance of mutual defense is a fact to use against Germany and AH.

The greatest fact pointing to Germany and AH as major partners in starting WW1 was the terms AH sent to Serbia to avoid war. 9 out of 10 demands were conceded. Only one was rejected and was asked if it could be negotiated. The shelling of Belgrade soon followed.

So here we have Serbia and AH at war.
Russia being drawn into it. Germany mobilizing.

Funny thing is the inflexible German war-plans that helped create the World war.
There was a brief moment when the Kaiser, Warlord of Germany, stopped the army from invading Luxembourg. The Kaiser wanted word from his cousin King George V. He told Molke he could redeploy the army and face Russia. Moltke broke-down had a hissy fit and said the plans were already made and could not be changed. What a baby.

England's role in creating the First World War was her drifting away from Germany and aligning with France and Russia. The death of Queen Victoria, in 1901, saw the beginning of this drift. Is there a connection? You decide.

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!! [:D]
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances

It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!! [:D]
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances

It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.

warspite1

Hands up if you have the original version! [:)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?

It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.

warspite1

Hands up if you have the original version! [:)]

*Holds hands up*

Am I being robbed now? [;)]

I have the original fatal alliances.

oh and "The question is Who Started World War I? "

Ok, i admit it. It was me.

Ok, thanks

Also most thought it would be a summer war, go out fight one or two battles and then declare a winner.

A lot of nations went into a lot of wars thinking this. The American Civil War was thought to be that it would last several weeks and everyone would go home.

Anyway, I thought it was the Canadians' fault. Aren't they always to blame?

Re: Fatal Alliances

Yes U Silly Newblettes, I, THE MIGHTY SLAAKMAN AM IN POSSESSION OF THE ORIGINAL VERSION!!! U R ALL DOOOOOMED!!

ezz- I have the original fatal alliances.

oh and "The question is Who Started World War I? "

Ok, i admit it. It was me.

COOL!! Now get down & give Silly Warspite2-Newblette 50 Kneel&Bobs! [:D] [:'(]

Kool And The Gang - Jungle Boogie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHGOO73Gxg4

I am glad that this, so far, has been a civil discussion.

I have not counted but I get the feeling that most blame Germany followed by 'all are to blame' and then a few votes on A-H and last UK. So far none, or few, seem to blame Russia, France or Serbia (except the group who blame all). Did I get this right?

Orm- You are probably correct but as evidenced by Thoreau's observations, I am the primary contestant who is closest to the Truth followed by Silly Warspite1-Newblette's acknowledgement that the Illuminati is a possibility- [:'(]

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."
Henry David Thoreau

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Orm- You are probably correct but as evidenced by Thoreau's observations, I am the primary contestant who is closest to the Truth followed by Silly Warspite1-Newblette's acknowledgement that the Illuminati is a possibility- [:'(]

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."
Henry David Thoreau

I am sorry Slaakman. I forgot your vote for the Illuminati. [:(]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I have not counted but I get the feeling that most blame Germany followed by 'all are to blame' and then a few votes on A-H and last UK. So far none, or few, seem to blame Russia, France or Serbia (except the group who blame all). Did I get this right?

I think you did [8D]